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Is "unicorns" better than "unicorn" at Deut. 33:17?

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Logos1560

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Your cavalier approach to the word of God and influencing others to approach it in the same way is wrong.

Perhaps KJV-onlyism displays the cavalier approach to the preserved Scriptures in the original languages as it tends to try to make one English translation in effect superior to it.
 

JD731

Well-Known Member
Your allegation is not true. I consistently have advocated that the same exact measures/standards be applied justly. You do not cite any different rules that I supposedly have for KJV believers. You show that you do not know what my scripturally-based counsel and position is if you are unaware of my consistent advocating of applying the same measures/standards justly. I am a KJV believer in what the KJV actually is, and I properly oppose vain attempts to make the KJV into something that it is not. KJV-only advocates believe assertions for the KJV that are not true.

It is KJV-only advocates who in effect give complete editorial liberty to the Church of England makers of the KJV and that do not apply the same exact measures/standards to them that they inconsistently and unjustly attempt to apply to other Bible translators. KJV-only advocates permit the KJV translators to use dynamic equivalent renderings, paraphrases, no English rendering at all for some original-language words of Scripture, and many added words for which they have no original-language words of Scripture. They permit the KJV translators to change a Hebrew noun singular in number to a plural, but they would condemn other Bible translators that do the same thing.

According to consistent, just application of your very own assertion, it would make you conflicted, which would make your counsel worthless, but you will not apply your own assertion to you yourself.

I have not even recommended nor advocated the Critical Text or any English translations made from it even though you seem to assume that I supposedly have. You jump to wrong conclusions without consideration of all the facts.

I have accused you of applying philistine principles of interpretation and ignoring the ways of God in his presentation of his word. To continually insist that the typology of the unicorns and the two horns of Joseph is an error because it is plural is a sure indication that you cannot be corrected in spite of the fact that I quoted God himself in Psa 92:10 saying that the unicorn has only one horn. This is not a bullock, it is a unicorn and this Hebrew word Reem is so translated by the KJV translators 9 times, which is how many times it is found in the manuscripts they were translating.

Deut 33:17 contains a prophesy and prophecies have fulfillments, yet you refuse to even speculate whether the prophecy has been fulfilled before this date, September 13, 2021, or if it still awaits fulfillment. Knowing this would definitely be instructive on understanding the meaning of the unicorns. If it cannot be demonstrated that it has been fulfilled then there is a very good chance that it still awaits fulfillment.

Deut 13:1 If there arise among you a prophet, or a dreamer of dreams, and giveth thee a sign or a wonder,
2 And the sign or the wonder come to pass, whereof he spake unto thee, saying, Let us go after other gods, which thou hast not known, and let us serve them;
3 Thou shalt not hearken unto the words of that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams: for the Lord your God proveth you, to know whether ye love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul.
4 Ye shall walk after the Lord your God, and fear him, and keep his commandments, and obey his voice, and ye shall serve him, and cleave unto him.
5 And that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams, shall be put to death; because he hath spoken to turn you away from the Lord your God, which brought you out of the land of Egypt, and redeemed you out of the house of bondage, to thrust thee out of the way which the Lord thy God commanded thee to walk in. So shalt thou put the evil away from the midst of thee.

Deut 18:18 I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.
19 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him.
20 But the prophet, which shall presume to speak a word in my name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or that shall speak in the name of other gods, even that prophet shall die.
21 And if thou say in thine heart, How shall we know the word which the Lord hath not spoken?
22 When a prophet speaketh in the name of the Lord, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the Lord hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him.

Jn 12:47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.
49 For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.
50 And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak.

You can take this or leave it. I have done all I can do.
 

Yeshua1

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KJV-only teaching in effect makes the KJV translators the arbiters and determiners of truth.

KJV-only reasoning/teaching would make the Church of England priests/critics who made the KJV into an exclusive priesthood who are trusted blindly and exclusively as the only acceptable translators/interpreters and determiners of the word of God in English.
The KJVO would then HAVE to also take over the Apocrypha and the books of Common Prayer and infant baptism!
 

Logos1560

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I have accused you of applying philistine principles of interpretation and ignoring the ways of God in his presentation of his word.

Your unjust accusing does not mean that it is true. Your statement would falsely accuse and bear false witness since your accusation is not true.

I do not ignore the ways of God and I do not apply "philistine principles of interpretation" as you incorrectly allege.
 

Yeshua1

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When the argument is reduced to someone saying, "the whole counsel of God or the overall teaching of the Scriptures would indicate," then you know the train has run off the track and we are getting ready to get subjective reasonings and overblown opinions and guesswork and obfuscations. And when someone follows those unsanctified opinions up with a long list of scriptures references that they know that no one in this world is going to go to the trouble of looking up to try to figure out what is in the context of those scriptures that will confirm the whole counsel of God saying what is claimed then the reader may as well go ahead and stick their leg out because someone is wanting to pull it.

If this is the best you can do I am losing interest in this conversation.

All the quotes in the NT that are taken from the OT are translated into the Greek language when they were written and they are often not word for word. What is the common denominator between them? It is the person of God. When Paul addressed the angry mob of Jews in Acts 22, he spoke in Hebrew but Luke wrote the record of his words in Greek. Translation had to take place. In which language was the words inspired? Who chose the words, Luke or the Holy Ghost? Which were more inspired, the Hebrew or the Greek?

Does anybody really believe that Jesus Christ is on the earth today in the person of the Holy Ghost? Did he lose his power after the NT was written in Greek? What is worse in God's eyes, having one English translation that is Holy Ghost produced or having scores of English translations that he had nothing to do with? Who really has the false teaching here? What philosophy would Satan be better able to infiltrate and corrupt?



The characteristic of this age as it winds toward it's end, according to Jesus Christ, is total and complete corruption, and these new MV and the Satanic philosophy that is associated with it is just one proof that his words are true.

Matt 13:33 Another parable spake he unto them; The kingdom of heaven is like unto leaven, which a woman took, and hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened.

Matt 13:6 Then Jesus said unto them, Take heed and beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees.

11 How is it that ye do not understand that I spake it not to you concerning bread, that ye should beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees?
12 Then understood they how that he bade them not beware of the leaven of bread, but of the doctrine of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees.

The leaven was not added by the atheists and sinners, but by the religious teachers. So it is.
The Holy Spirit directly inspired the Originals, and He protected the texts so that we would have reliable Greek and Hebrew source texts to translate off from, but he did NOT inspire any translation, as the 1611 kjv is no more so then nas/Esv/Nkjv versions themselves!
 

Logos1560

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in spite of the fact that I quoted God himself in Psa 92:10 saying that the unicorn has only one horn..

That may be your inconsistent, hypocritical, or unjust interpretation of what God stated in Psalm 92:10 since you do not also say that Exodus 21:29 quotes God as saying that an ox has only one horn or 1 Samuel 17:37 as saying that a lion and a bear has only one paw.

Does Psalm 92:10 say "only one horn" as you asserted or did you add to what God stated?
Did you not notice that "the horn of" is in italics in the KJV indicating that there are no original language words of Scripture for those three words?

Are you displaying that you are conflicted and using double standards in your private interpretations that would have differ from one verse to another?
 
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JD731

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The Holy Spirit directly inspired the Originals, and He protected the texts so that we would have reliable Greek and Hebrew source texts to translate off from, but he did NOT inspire any translation, as the 1611 kjv is no more so then nas/Esv/Nkjv versions themselves!

How do they translate “reem in Deut. 33:17 and the eight other instances of it’s use?”

I hope you understand that you are speaking as a prophet and giving new revelation because you did not quote a former prophet saying anything like that. If God did not send you then you are speaking for yourself or someone you have chosen to obey.
 

JD731

Well-Known Member
That may be your inconsistent, hypocritical, or unjust interpretation of what God stated in Psalm 92:10 since you do not also say that Exodus 21:29 quotes God as saying that an ox has only one horn or 1 Samuel 17:37 as saying that a lion and a bear has only one paw.

Does Psalm 92:10 say "only one horn" as you asserted or did you add to what God stated?
Did you not notice that "the horn of" is in italics in the KJV indicating that there are no original language words of Scripture for those three words?

Are you displaying that you are conflicted and using double standards in your private interpretations that would have differ from one verse to another?

If the unicorn, who is a picture of Jesus Christ on the earthly sabbath, has two horns, then Jesus Christ will have a co- ruler.
 

Yeshua1

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How do they translate “reem in Deut. 33:17 and the eight other instances of it’s use?”

I hope you understand that you are speaking as a prophet and giving new revelation because you did not quote a former prophet saying anything like that. If God did not send you then you are speaking for yourself or someone you have chosen to obey.
Wouldn't this be so much easier to just admit that the Kjv was not a perfect translation?
 

JD731

Well-Known Member
Wouldn't this be so much easier to just admit that the Kjv was not a perfect translation?


Matthew 13:24-30
24 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:
25 But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way.
26 But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also.
27 So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?
28 He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?
29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.
30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

Matthew 13:36-43
36 Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field.
37 He answered and said unto them,

He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;
38 The field is the world;
the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but
the tares are the children of the wicked one;
39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil;
the harvest is the end of the world; and
the reapers are the angels.

40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world. (Age, Aion)
41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

Your philosophy will not endure until the next age. This is now the end of this age and most all men have now chosen their bundle. The fire mentioned here is the great tribulation, a time like no other time that has ever been or ever will be when God purges the earth of all sinners who will not repent. This time frame is noted in the scriptures under the theme of “Day of the LORD.” The KJV says the earth will not cover the slain.

What bundle are you in? The bundles will not be burned until after the harvest where the good seed are gathered into the barn. This of course is a reference to the righteous being gathered at the rapture of his church.

Ephesians 1:10
That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
 

Logos1560

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If the unicorn, who is a picture of Jesus Christ on the earthly sabbath, has two horns, then Jesus Christ will have a co- ruler.

Your human reasoning is faulty, imperfect, and sometimes incorrect. You continue to jump to wrong conclusions although you refuse to see that.
 

Yeshua1

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Matthew 13:24-30
24 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:
25 But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way.
26 But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also.
27 So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?
28 He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?
29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.
30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

Matthew 13:36-43
36 Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field.
37 He answered and said unto them,

He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;
38 The field is the world;
the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but
the tares are the children of the wicked one;
39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil;
the harvest is the end of the world; and
the reapers are the angels.

40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world. (Age, Aion)
41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

Your philosophy will not endure until the next age. This is now the end of this age and most all men have now chosen their bundle. The fire mentioned here is the great tribulation, a time like no other time that has ever been or ever will be when God purges the earth of all sinners who will not repent. This time frame is noted in the scriptures under the theme of “Day of the LORD.” The KJV says the earth will not cover the slain.

What bundle are you in? The bundles will not be burned until after the harvest where the good seed are gathered into the barn. This of course is a reference to the righteous being gathered at the rapture of his church.

Ephesians 1:10
That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
Are you asking here if I am saved?
 

Logos1560

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How do they translate “reem in Deut. 33:17 and the eight other instances of it’s use?”

You ignore the possibility that they could translate the Hebrew noun reem inaccurately.

The Church of England makers of the KJV were likely following the Greek LXX's rendering monokeros or the Latin Vulgate's unicornis since they may not have been sure to which animal that the Hebrew referred.
They used a Hebrew-Latin lexicon that often had the renderings in the Latin Vulgate as the definition of the Hebrew words. They were also following the pre-1611 English Bibles which were also influenced by the Latin Vulgate. Miles Coverdale had used the Latin Vulgate as one of his primary sources for the Old Testament in his 1535 English Bible.

At Deuteronomy 14:5, Tyndale's and Coverdale's along with the 1560 Geneva Bible have the rendering "unicorn" and the 1602 Spanish Valera Bible has unicornio while the KJV has "pygarg" from the Greek LXX's rendering pygargos or the Latin Vulgate's rendering pygargus.
 

Logos1560

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If the unicorn, who is a picture of Jesus Christ on the earthly sabbath, has two horns, then Jesus Christ will have a co- ruler.

Your assertion is not true. The sound, compelling scriptural evidence that the reem has two horns does not lead to the conclusion that Jesus Christ would supposedly have a co-ruler. Referring to one horn of an animal with two horns on its head does not at all suggest what you imagine or speculate. Your incorrect reasoning suggests that your interpretation skills are not as superior or as great as you seem to assume.

In the next verse Psalm 92:11, one eye [Mine eye--singular] is referred to, but that does not mean that the one referred to has only one eye and would not mean that if two eyes were referred to that the one has a co-ruler.
 

Salty

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This thread will be closed no sooner than 830 pm EDT / 530 pm PDT
 

JD731

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Your assertion is not true. The sound, compelling scriptural evidence that the reem has two horns does not lead to the conclusion that Jesus Christ would supposedly have a co-ruler. Referring to one horn of an animal with two horns on its head does not at all suggest what you imagine or speculate. Your incorrect reasoning suggests that your interpretation skills are not as superior or as great as you seem to assume.

In the next verse Psalm 92:11, one eye [Mine eye--singular] is referred to, but that does not mean that the one referred to has only one eye and would not mean that if two eyes were referred to that the one has a co-ruler.

Here is a test for you. Pick out the imagery that is descriptive and then pick out what is intended to be literal and try to figure out the difference. Use these verses.

Psalms 92:6-15
6 A brutish man knoweth not; neither doth a fool understand this.
7 When the wicked spring as the grass, and when all the workers of iniquity do flourish; it is that they shall be destroyed for ever:
8 But thou, LORD, art most high for evermore.
9 For, lo, thine enemies, O LORD, for, lo, thine enemies shall perish; all the workers of iniquity shall be scattered.

and for his goodness to the godly
10 But my horn shalt thou exalt like the horn of an unicorn: I shall be anointed with fresh oil.
11 Mine eye also shall see my desire on mine enemies, and mine ears shall hear my desire of the wicked that rise up against me.
12 The righteous shall flourish like the palm tree: he shall grow like a cedar in Lebanon.
13 Those that be planted in the house of the LORD shall flourish in the courts of our God.
14 They shall still bring forth fruit in old age; they shall be fat and flourishing;
15 To shew that the LORD is upright: he is my rock, and there is no unrighteousness in him.

The “reem” has one horn and is the proper symbol for this Horn that is exalted. A two horned animal would not be a proper symbol. This is the millennium that is under discussion in this Psalm.
 

Logos1560

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The “reem” has one horn .

Your opinion is incorrect. You are ignoring and dodging what God said in the Hebrew to the prophets.
You have not answered nor refuted the compelling scriptural evidence. Your inconsistent reasoning is faulty and imperfect and conflicted. You show that you are in effect trying to make a translation superior to God's word in the original language. You ignore the evidence that the early English translators including the KJV translators were too much influenced by the Greek LXX and Latin Vulgate in their adoption of the rendering "unicorn."

According to the Scriptures in Hebrew, one reem [singular] has horns [plural] (Deut. 33:17). According to the context at Deut. 33:17, a reem has two horns. Also according to the dual form in Hebrew used for horns of the reem at Psalm 22:21, a reem has two horns.
 
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