1. Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Featured Is "unicorns" better than "unicorn" at Deut. 33:17?

Discussion in 'Bible Versions & Translations' started by Logos1560, Aug 29, 2021.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Logos1560

    Logos1560 Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2004
    Messages:
    6,602
    Likes Received:
    464
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Perhaps KJV-onlyism displays the cavalier approach to the preserved Scriptures in the original languages as it tends to try to make one English translation in effect superior to it.
     
  2. JD731

    JD731 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2020
    Messages:
    2,930
    Likes Received:
    226
    Faith:
    Baptist
    I have accused you of applying philistine principles of interpretation and ignoring the ways of God in his presentation of his word. To continually insist that the typology of the unicorns and the two horns of Joseph is an error because it is plural is a sure indication that you cannot be corrected in spite of the fact that I quoted God himself in Psa 92:10 saying that the unicorn has only one horn. This is not a bullock, it is a unicorn and this Hebrew word Reem is so translated by the KJV translators 9 times, which is how many times it is found in the manuscripts they were translating.

    Deut 33:17 contains a prophesy and prophecies have fulfillments, yet you refuse to even speculate whether the prophecy has been fulfilled before this date, September 13, 2021, or if it still awaits fulfillment. Knowing this would definitely be instructive on understanding the meaning of the unicorns. If it cannot be demonstrated that it has been fulfilled then there is a very good chance that it still awaits fulfillment.

    Deut 13:1 If there arise among you a prophet, or a dreamer of dreams, and giveth thee a sign or a wonder,
    2 And the sign or the wonder come to pass, whereof he spake unto thee, saying, Let us go after other gods, which thou hast not known, and let us serve them;
    3 Thou shalt not hearken unto the words of that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams: for the Lord your God proveth you, to know whether ye love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul.
    4 Ye shall walk after the Lord your God, and fear him, and keep his commandments, and obey his voice, and ye shall serve him, and cleave unto him.
    5 And that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams, shall be put to death; because he hath spoken to turn you away from the Lord your God, which brought you out of the land of Egypt, and redeemed you out of the house of bondage, to thrust thee out of the way which the Lord thy God commanded thee to walk in. So shalt thou put the evil away from the midst of thee.

    Deut 18:18 I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.
    19 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him.
    20 But the prophet, which shall presume to speak a word in my name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or that shall speak in the name of other gods, even that prophet shall die.
    21 And if thou say in thine heart, How shall we know the word which the Lord hath not spoken?
    22 When a prophet speaketh in the name of the Lord, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the Lord hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him.

    Jn 12:47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
    48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.
    49 For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.
    50 And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak.

    You can take this or leave it. I have done all I can do.
     
  3. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2012
    Messages:
    52,624
    Likes Received:
    2,742
    Faith:
    Baptist
    The KJVO would then HAVE to also take over the Apocrypha and the books of Common Prayer and infant baptism!
     
  4. Logos1560

    Logos1560 Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2004
    Messages:
    6,602
    Likes Received:
    464
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Your unjust accusing does not mean that it is true. Your statement would falsely accuse and bear false witness since your accusation is not true.

    I do not ignore the ways of God and I do not apply "philistine principles of interpretation" as you incorrectly allege.
     
    • Winner Winner x 1
  5. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2012
    Messages:
    52,624
    Likes Received:
    2,742
    Faith:
    Baptist
    The Holy Spirit directly inspired the Originals, and He protected the texts so that we would have reliable Greek and Hebrew source texts to translate off from, but he did NOT inspire any translation, as the 1611 kjv is no more so then nas/Esv/Nkjv versions themselves!
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  6. Logos1560

    Logos1560 Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2004
    Messages:
    6,602
    Likes Received:
    464
    Faith:
    Baptist
    That may be your inconsistent, hypocritical, or unjust interpretation of what God stated in Psalm 92:10 since you do not also say that Exodus 21:29 quotes God as saying that an ox has only one horn or 1 Samuel 17:37 as saying that a lion and a bear has only one paw.

    Does Psalm 92:10 say "only one horn" as you asserted or did you add to what God stated?
    Did you not notice that "the horn of" is in italics in the KJV indicating that there are no original language words of Scripture for those three words?

    Are you displaying that you are conflicted and using double standards in your private interpretations that would have differ from one verse to another?
     
    #126 Logos1560, Sep 13, 2021
    Last edited: Sep 13, 2021
    • Winner Winner x 1
  7. JD731

    JD731 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2020
    Messages:
    2,930
    Likes Received:
    226
    Faith:
    Baptist
    How do they translate “reem in Deut. 33:17 and the eight other instances of it’s use?”

    I hope you understand that you are speaking as a prophet and giving new revelation because you did not quote a former prophet saying anything like that. If God did not send you then you are speaking for yourself or someone you have chosen to obey.
     
  8. JD731

    JD731 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2020
    Messages:
    2,930
    Likes Received:
    226
    Faith:
    Baptist
    If the unicorn, who is a picture of Jesus Christ on the earthly sabbath, has two horns, then Jesus Christ will have a co- ruler.
     
  9. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2012
    Messages:
    52,624
    Likes Received:
    2,742
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Wouldn't this be so much easier to just admit that the Kjv was not a perfect translation?
     
    • Useful Useful x 1
  10. JD731

    JD731 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2020
    Messages:
    2,930
    Likes Received:
    226
    Faith:
    Baptist

    Matthew 13:24-30
    24 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:
    25 But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way.
    26 But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also.
    27 So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?
    28 He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?
    29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.
    30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

    Matthew 13:36-43
    36 Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field.
    37 He answered and said unto them,

    He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;
    38 The field is the world;
    the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but
    the tares are the children of the wicked one;
    39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil;
    the harvest is the end of the world; and
    the reapers are the angels.

    40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world. (Age, Aion)
    41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
    42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
    43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

    Your philosophy will not endure until the next age. This is now the end of this age and most all men have now chosen their bundle. The fire mentioned here is the great tribulation, a time like no other time that has ever been or ever will be when God purges the earth of all sinners who will not repent. This time frame is noted in the scriptures under the theme of “Day of the LORD.” The KJV says the earth will not cover the slain.

    What bundle are you in? The bundles will not be burned until after the harvest where the good seed are gathered into the barn. This of course is a reference to the righteous being gathered at the rapture of his church.

    Ephesians 1:10
    That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
     
  11. Logos1560

    Logos1560 Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2004
    Messages:
    6,602
    Likes Received:
    464
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Your human reasoning is faulty, imperfect, and sometimes incorrect. You continue to jump to wrong conclusions although you refuse to see that.
     
  12. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2012
    Messages:
    52,624
    Likes Received:
    2,742
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Are you asking here if I am saved?
     
  13. Logos1560

    Logos1560 Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2004
    Messages:
    6,602
    Likes Received:
    464
    Faith:
    Baptist
    You ignore the possibility that they could translate the Hebrew noun reem inaccurately.

    The Church of England makers of the KJV were likely following the Greek LXX's rendering monokeros or the Latin Vulgate's unicornis since they may not have been sure to which animal that the Hebrew referred.
    They used a Hebrew-Latin lexicon that often had the renderings in the Latin Vulgate as the definition of the Hebrew words. They were also following the pre-1611 English Bibles which were also influenced by the Latin Vulgate. Miles Coverdale had used the Latin Vulgate as one of his primary sources for the Old Testament in his 1535 English Bible.

    At Deuteronomy 14:5, Tyndale's and Coverdale's along with the 1560 Geneva Bible have the rendering "unicorn" and the 1602 Spanish Valera Bible has unicornio while the KJV has "pygarg" from the Greek LXX's rendering pygargos or the Latin Vulgate's rendering pygargus.
     
  14. Logos1560

    Logos1560 Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2004
    Messages:
    6,602
    Likes Received:
    464
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Your assertion is not true. The sound, compelling scriptural evidence that the reem has two horns does not lead to the conclusion that Jesus Christ would supposedly have a co-ruler. Referring to one horn of an animal with two horns on its head does not at all suggest what you imagine or speculate. Your incorrect reasoning suggests that your interpretation skills are not as superior or as great as you seem to assume.

    In the next verse Psalm 92:11, one eye [Mine eye--singular] is referred to, but that does not mean that the one referred to has only one eye and would not mean that if two eyes were referred to that the one has a co-ruler.
     
  15. Salty

    Salty 20,000 Posts Club
    Administrator

    Joined:
    Apr 8, 2003
    Messages:
    38,981
    Likes Received:
    2,616
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Six hour warning
    This thread will be closed no sooner than 830 pm EDT / 530 pm PDT
     
  16. JD731

    JD731 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2020
    Messages:
    2,930
    Likes Received:
    226
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Here is a test for you. Pick out the imagery that is descriptive and then pick out what is intended to be literal and try to figure out the difference. Use these verses.

    Psalms 92:6-15
    6 A brutish man knoweth not; neither doth a fool understand this.
    7 When the wicked spring as the grass, and when all the workers of iniquity do flourish; it is that they shall be destroyed for ever:
    8 But thou, LORD, art most high for evermore.
    9 For, lo, thine enemies, O LORD, for, lo, thine enemies shall perish; all the workers of iniquity shall be scattered.
    
and for his goodness to the godly
    10 But my horn shalt thou exalt like the horn of an unicorn: I shall be anointed with fresh oil.
    11 Mine eye also shall see my desire on mine enemies, and mine ears shall hear my desire of the wicked that rise up against me.
    12 The righteous shall flourish like the palm tree: he shall grow like a cedar in Lebanon.
    13 Those that be planted in the house of the LORD shall flourish in the courts of our God.
    14 They shall still bring forth fruit in old age; they shall be fat and flourishing;
    15 To shew that the LORD is upright: he is my rock, and there is no unrighteousness in him.

    The “reem” has one horn and is the proper symbol for this Horn that is exalted. A two horned animal would not be a proper symbol. This is the millennium that is under discussion in this Psalm.
     
  17. Logos1560

    Logos1560 Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2004
    Messages:
    6,602
    Likes Received:
    464
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Your opinion is incorrect. You are ignoring and dodging what God said in the Hebrew to the prophets.
    You have not answered nor refuted the compelling scriptural evidence. Your inconsistent reasoning is faulty and imperfect and conflicted. You show that you are in effect trying to make a translation superior to God's word in the original language. You ignore the evidence that the early English translators including the KJV translators were too much influenced by the Greek LXX and Latin Vulgate in their adoption of the rendering "unicorn."

    According to the Scriptures in Hebrew, one reem [singular] has horns [plural] (Deut. 33:17). According to the context at Deut. 33:17, a reem has two horns. Also according to the dual form in Hebrew used for horns of the reem at Psalm 22:21, a reem has two horns.
     
    #137 Logos1560, Sep 15, 2021
    Last edited: Sep 15, 2021
    • Useful Useful x 1
  18. Salty

    Salty 20,000 Posts Club
    Administrator

    Joined:
    Apr 8, 2003
    Messages:
    38,981
    Likes Received:
    2,616
    Faith:
    Baptist
    This thread is closed
    Feel free to start a new one
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
Loading...