Featured The Willingness of men

I never said anything about universalism, so your comment was misleading friend.

 

I would.

 

Indeed it was.

 

Calvinists insist that the drawing of God is irresistible in Jn 6:44 then say it is not fair when I compare it to Jn 12:32. Your own words show that you put forward universalism, just because you don't agree does not change the reality of it.
When you say draw G1670 in Jn 6:44 is irresistible then that must mean that draw G1670 in Jn 12:32 is irresistible or do we have another case of calvinists changing the meaning of words.
So as I said you BF52 are promoting universalism as are all calvinists that support your view. Like it or not.
Or you could actually trust what the bible says and drop your false view of scripture.

 

You still being dishonest !

 

Your still denying the obvious. Why do you not see what your failed theology leads to? Are you really the incapable of clear logical thinking?

Well I can give you one alternative option. But I doubt you will like it either. But you really only have these two options to chose from when you consider your theology.

Well here goes. Since you insist that God will only save those that He draws to Himself and we know that many people do not get drawn to Him. Then we are left with the obvious, which is that God did not draw those that are lost and since they cannot be saved unless He does draw them that means that all those that are not drawn are lost because He chose not to draw them. So what we have is billions of persons in hell because God did not draw them.
option 1} you support universalism, all get saved or
option 2} you support God condemning billions to hell because He chose to do so.

I could give you a third option, the biblical one, called free will but you don't believe that exists so that is off the board for you.
Now I know you may try and use compatibilism as a way to extricate your self from this but that will not help you.

Compatibilism, despite what the name suggests, doesn’t reconcile free will and determinism. Compatibilism, at most, would explain why we feel like we’re free when we make our actions even though we’re determined. But it doesn’t actually let us affirm the two propositions; (A) Man is determined, and (B) Man is free. Why? Because on compatibilism, man still cannot choose between alternatives.
In other words you cannot choose anything except what you were determined {by God} to choose.

So you end up back at either Option 1 or Option 2. Or you could always just say man has a true free will.

So whats it going to be?

 

The apostles authored it.

 

In your dreams they did. Calvinism style doctrine is not found until augustine. Calvin just copied augustine and you have jumped onto the doctrine because you think it is in the bible.
Why don't you take a serious look at the doctrines and try to be honest about it. You really have to twist scripture to make it fit or you just cherry pick verses that you think will support your view. As is often said, Calvinism and context never go together.

 

John 6:44 and John 12:32 are not in conflict.
All that the Father gives to Jesus will be drawn (dragged) to Jesus.

If we understand the whole of scripture instead of using the Bible like a CNN anchor person taking quotes out of context, we will rightly divide the word of God.

 

Your comments here show that you do not understand the Doctrines of Grace, but we all know that anyway, so we press on.

So, is God sovereign, yes or no? You have previously said that He is, but perhaps you have changed your mind.
Does God condemn billions to hell? Yes or no.
Are there fewer in hell according to Arminianism? If so, why?

 

Martin you must really not understand the Doctrines of Grace. If you would just step back and look at them from a logical point of view you would see how abhorrent they really are.

Is God Sovereign of course He is. Just not by the twisted definition that you want to use.
Does God condemn billions to hell by free will no but by your theology yes. Remember what your doctrines of grace say and also your definition of salvation requires.

I have pointed out some of the errors then your LBCF forces on scripture but you refuse to see them. But we all know that since everything that you do or think is determined for you we just press on in the hope that God at some point will determine to change your mind so that you come to a true understanding of scripture.

Well since I am not an arminian I cannot answer for them. As for me the number that will be in hell will be determined by how each person deals with the gospel. Do they accept or reject it. But that is what free will is all about as you well know.

 

It is likely you will get a dance around with Silverhair. He cannot clearly express his own theology let alone anyone else's. I have found, like with Van, that it is better to ignore Silverhair. He follows a doctrine not taught by any of the writers in the Bible.

 

So God is Sovereign.......but not over salvation! Well, I hope you never pray for your unsaved loved ones, because that would be inconsistent. God has washed His hands of the matter and, having sent Christ to die on the cross, has no further interest in it. He doesn't, by your theology, love anyone enough to save him, but has left everyone to sink or swim to salvation by their own efforts.
If this were true - and praise God it isn't - no one could be saved since there is no one who seeks after God (Romans 3:11). But.mirabile dictu, there is hope because 'it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy' (Romans 9:16).

Well, so you are not an Arminian, but you can still tell me how the billions you think are going to hell are any fewer by whatever crackpot theology it is that you may hold.

 

Strange that you would say that Austin as your the one that follows a man made theology, calvinism. My theology is clearly shown in the bible, you obviously cannot understand that. Your doctrine of grace is just something that man made up so they could justify their errant understanding of scripture.

Austin you have made it abundantly clear that for you it is necessary that everyone must believe your version of theology or they just do not understand the bible. You follow your path and I will follow mine.

 

Silverhair...doing whatever seems right in his own eyes.

 

Martin I could say that you have a low view of Gods' sovereignty because for you He is not able to grant free will to His creation. Thus as I have said many times my view of the sovereignty of God is in line with the bible, God does grant free will to His creation.

Your characterizations are to say the least insulting. Why is it necessary for you to insult God? You deny all that He does and think your being smart about it. If God has said that man is to fulfill a condition in order to be saved who are you to question Him. And what is that condition FAITH in His son.
Now I have to think that you have a different bible than I have as I find a number of verses that indicate that man can seek God. 1Ch28:9 Solomon; 2Ch 14:4 Asa & Judah {nation}; Psa 63:1 David; Dan 9:3 Daniel; Hos 3:5 Isreal {nation}; Act 17:24-27, Heb 11:6 Mankind. There are more but you get the picture. And I have to ask why would God have us seek Him if we could not do it and also for what reason?
You can follow Augustine or Calvin and others can follow Arminius but for me I will just follow Christ Jesus. That has turned out fine for the last 60 plus years so I see no reason to change now.

Just as a side note, I had not even heard of this calvin arminius fight until about 10 years ago. I read up on both of them and found that calvinism was in my mind not biblical and the more I have looked at it that point has just been reinforced. Although arminianism is in line with scripture I would not call myself one as I really do not like labels, they just get in the way. I am just a bible believing Christian.

 

You seem to have a real problem with people just following the bible instead of your determined theology. Not sure what the problem is though, as according to your theology I am just determined by God to be opposed to your view.

 

The willingness we have if and when it comes to the sacred spiritual things of God to receive, it certainly doesnt come from the natural heart and ability of the natural man because its written 1 Cor 2:14

14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

But if we have been made spiritual by the New Birth, then God persuades us or causes us to be made willing.

Gen 9:27

God shall enlarge Japheth, and he shall dwell in the tents of Shem; and Canaan shall be his servant.

This verse has much spiritual import, and it says God shall enlarge Japheth, the word enlarge pāṯâ means:

1. to be persuaded
   

And thats what Faith is, being persuaded. The word Faith in the NT comes from peithō which means:

persuade

1. to persuade, i.e. to induce one by words to believe
   obey.

So God is the author of ones spiritual willingness to the things of God, not the natural man .