The Willingness of men

[AustinC]

You seem to have a real problem with people just following the bible instead of your determined theology. Not sure what the problem is though, as according to your theology I am just determined by God to be opposed to your view.

You don't follow the Bible, Silverhair. You follow what seems right in your own eyes. I oppose you because you teach a false view of God.

God tells us, very plainly and openly, that he predestined, elects, calls, drags, draws, chooses and adopts humans. This is found in multiple passes, both old and new testament. You have created a philosophy designed to skirt around this truth so that YOU are your own savior and king, but God acts like a fireman who is on call when you get in trouble. The only time we ever read of free will in the Bible is in connection to the prescribed legal sacrifices and the free will offering. That, of course, had nothing to do with salvation in the Mosaic Covenant.
Many, many passages from scripture have been shared with you regarding what God clearly says he does. Yet, you hate God's word because it tells you that you are a slave, not a king. So you make up a narrative where you are king and God is your slave. I will have no part in your false narrative that comes from your flesh, not from God.

Now, everyone on the BB can see what the problem is. You are like Hymenaeus and Alexander. I hand you over to Satan until you stop blaspheming the King of Kings.

 

[Silverhair]

You don't follow the Bible, Silverhair. You follow what seems right in your own eyes. I oppose you because you teach a false view of God.

God tells us, very plainly and openly, that he predestined, elects, calls, drags, draws, chooses and adopts humans. This is found in multiple passes, both old and new testament. You have created a philosophy designed to skirt around this truth so that YOU are your own savior and king, but God acts like a fireman who is on call when you get in trouble. The only time we ever read of free will in the Bible is in connection to the prescribed legal sacrifices and the free will offering. That, of course, had nothing to do with salvation in the Mosaic Covenant.
Many, many passages from scripture have been shared with you regarding what God clearly says he does. Yet, you hate God's word because it tells you that you are a slave, not a king. So you make up a narrative where you are king and God is your slave. I will have no part in your false narrative that comes from your flesh, not from God.

Now, everyone on the BB can see what the problem is. You are like Hymenaeus and Alexander. I hand you over to Satan until you stop blaspheming the King of Kings.

Austin you must be quite young or immature as only that can account for your arrogance.
As I have said I looked at your theology and have found it to be inconsistent to say the least. You say that God chooses all that will be save by "Unconditional Election" and "Limited Atonement" and "Irresistible Grace" but then say that God does not condemn any one to hell. Really, give you head a shake and wake up.
Those that are not part of the Unconditional Limited Irresistible group are consigned to hell just for that reason and nothing else. The fact they sin during their lives has nothing to do with it as the decisions were all made before time began according to your theology.
The God of scripture does not do that does He. God condemns people for their sin and rejection of His son. That's biblical.
If you cannot see the difference between biblical theology and your calvinist theology then there is not much hope for you.

 

[AustinC]

Austin you must be quite young or immature as only that can account for your arrogance.
As I have said I looked at your theology and have found it to be inconsistent to say the least. You say that God chooses all that will be save by "Unconditional Election" and "Limited Atonement" and "Irresistible Grace" but then say that God does not condemn any one to hell. Really, give you head a shake and wake up.
Those that are not part of the Unconditional Limited Irresistible group are consigned to hell just for that reason and nothing else. The fact they sin during their lives has nothing to do with it as the decisions were all made before time began according to your theology.
The God of scripture does not do that does He. God condemns people for their sin and rejection of His son. That's biblical.
If you cannot see the difference between biblical theology and your calvinist theology then there is not much hope for you.

Neither young nor immature. If I were either I might fall for your error and blasphemy.

Even reading your post here, it is obvious you have little to no understanding of God's word. Instead, you attempt to cherry pick in an attempt to prop up your own created philosophy.

As I have said, I treat you like Paul treated Hymenaeus and Alexander.

 

[MB]

Neither young nor immature. If I were either I might fall for your error and blasphemy.

Even reading your post here, it is obvious you have little to no understanding of God's word. Instead, you attempt to cherry pick in an attempt to prop up your own created philosophy.

As I have said, I treat you like Paul treated Hymenaeus and Alexander.

Paul never treated anyone like you do. Quit trying to justify your actions it doesn't impress anyone.By the way the thread is about the willingness of man You haven't a clue because you're robot and can't make any decisions on your own..
MB

 

[Silverhair]

Neither young nor immature. If I were either I might fall for your error and blasphemy.

Even reading your post here, it is obvious you have little to no understanding of God's word. Instead, you attempt to cherry pick in an attempt to prop up your own created philosophy.

As I have said, I treat you like Paul treated Hymenaeus and Alexander.

Those are right out of TULIP and those are not biblical. You seem to be oblivious to the truth. You cannot even see what is right in front of your eyes. It is really sad to see that you are that blind to truth.
I understand Gods' word and I do not need TULIP to tell me what it is. You put more faith in calvin than you do in God.

 

[ad finitum]

Was Israel chosen by God? Was Solomon chosen by God to be the King of Israel?

Sure. David was actually wasting his words when he enjoined Solomon to serve with a willing mind. Solomon was chosen. He had no choice in the matter. Except, he multiplied his wives and built them temples of idolatry.

Solomon did choose. He was free to choose righteousness and also to choose evil. Just like everyone else.

Israel is a chosen people. But in what sense? Some pursued the things of God, some dropped dead in the wilderness. Some swallowed up by the earth.

 

[AustinC]

Paul never treated anyone like you do. Quit trying to justify your actions it doesn't impress anyone.By the way the thread is about the willingness of man You haven't a clue because you're robot and can't make any decisions on your own..
MB

You apparently don't read the Bible. Paul gives people over to Satan in hopes they will repent. Paul wishes some people would castrate themselves because of their false teaching.

 

[AustinC]

Sure. David was actually wasting his words when he enjoined Solomon to serve with a willing mind. Solomon was chosen. He had no choice in the matter. Except, he multiplied his wives and built them temples of idolatry.

Solomon did choose. He was free to choose righteousness and also to choose evil. Just like everyone else.

Israel is a chosen people. But in what sense? Some pursued the things of God, some dropped dead in the wilderness. Some swallowed up by the earth.

Within the election of God we have the capacity to obey or disobey our King. Because we are also children of God, God will discipline us for our choices. The illegitimate ones God will ignore as they are not His children (read Hebrews 12).

We all make choices. No one says we don't. Those choices are allowed or disallowed based upon the ordained will of God and how our choices align with God's plan. We have no capacity to overpower or negate the will of God. It is in this fashion I say we do not exert free will in our own salvation. It is in fact extremely arrogant for any Christian to say they exercised free will in causing God to save them. Humans do not have that kind of power to move God to do as they have so chosen.

 

[Silverhair]

You apparently don't read the Bible. Paul gives people over to Satan in hopes they will repent. Paul wishes some people would castrate themselves because of their false teaching.

But apparently you do not read that well either. I pointed out the errors that are in TULIP and you still will not address them. Ignoring the problem does not make it go away.
Since you support the TULIP answer how it does not make God the determiner of all those that go to hell. Mystery will not help in this case as the problem is clear you just will not see it.

 

[AustinC]

But apparently you do not read that well either. I pointed out the errors that are in TULIP and you still will not address them. Ignoring the problem does not make it go away.
Since you support the TULIP answer how it does not make God the determiner of all those that go to hell. Mystery will not help in this case as the problem is clear you just will not see it.

Again, the issue is what the Bible teaches. It is clear you live in a world of philosophy, in which I will not join you. Try distract all you want, I will point out scripture and you can either accept God's word or reject it.

 

[Silverhair]

Within the election of God we have the capacity to obey or disobey our King. Because we are also children of God, God will discipline us for our choices. The illegitimate ones God will ignore as they are not His children (read Hebrews 12).

We all make choices. No one says we don't. Those choices are allowed or disallowed based upon the ordained will of God and how our choices align with God's plan. We have no capacity to overpower or negate the will of God. It is in this fashion I say we do not exert free will in our own salvation. It is in fact extremely arrogant for any Christian to say they exercised free will in causing God to save them. Humans do not have that kind of power to move God to do as they have so chosen.

"We have no capacity to overpower or negate the will of God." Now austin why would you say that, it cannot be because you believe it. Your whole theology negates the will of God. God wants us to seek Him to repent to trust in His son for salvation and yet you keep saying that man does not have that ability.

So what does the bible say is the "will of God"
1Pe_4:6 For the gospel has for this purpose been preached even to those who are dead, that though they are judged in the flesh as men, they may live in the spirit according to the will of God.
2Co_7:10 For the sorrow that is according to the will of God produces a repentance without regret, leading to salvation, but the sorrow of the world produces death.
The "will of God" has the gospel preached to all so that some may repent and be saved. Are you now going to deny the power of the gospel or say it is not necessary for salvation?
The more you write the more your lack of understanding of free will becomes apparent. You need to do some reading outside your echo chamber.

 

[Silverhair]

Again, the issue is what the Bible teaches. It is clear you live in a world of philosophy, in which I will not join you. Try distract all you want, I will point out scripture and you can either accept God's word or reject it.

That is what I keep pointing out to you, trust scripture not your doctrines of grace. You may think you are being biblical but sadly that is not the case. You will jump through hoops to defend your DoG and yet will not see the clear problems there in.

 

[MB]

You apparently don't read the Bible. Paul gives people over to Satan in hopes they will repent. Paul wishes some people would castrate themselves because of their false teaching.

That sounds like a good idea why don't you?

 

[Iconoclast]

Siverhair, Mb, Van
It has been explained, you ignore it and remain ignorant. To complain to others who understand it , when you do not.
The term preterition describes God overlooking the non-elect persons.
He does not stop them from coming, but they have no desire.
just like you, Mb, and van have no desire to come to truth, but invent your own versions, suggesting that all of the confessing church has been mistaken.

Got Questions;
The Reformed doctrine of preterition says that God elects some people to salvation and leaves the rest of humanity in their fallen condition. The word preterition means “passing over” and, in the context of theology, “omission from God’s elect.” The word implies that God chose to “pass over” some people and save others. The Westminster Confession of Faith teaches preterition: “The rest of mankind [not the elect] God was pleased, according to the unsearchable counsel of His own will, whereby He extendeth or withholdeth mercy, as He pleaseth, for the glory of His Sovereign power over His creatures, to pass by; and to ordain them to dishonour and wrath for their sin, to the praise of His glorious justice” (Chapter III — Article VII).

t is important to differentiate preterition from double predestination. Double predestination teaches that God proactively elects some to heaven and proactively elects some to hell—it is a balanced predestination in that God is as equally active in choosing people for hell as He is in choosing people for heaven.
The problem is that double predestination is not taught in Scripture. The Bible nowhere says that God “elects” people to go to hell;
the only election mentioned in the Bible is that which sends people to heaven. Preterition, in contrast, teaches that God actively elects some to heaven and passively allows others to remain in their sin—it is an unbalanced predestination in that God is active toward some and inactive toward others. The doctrine of preterition is careful not to go beyond what the Bible teaches about predestination.

 

[AustinC]

That sounds like a good idea why don't you?

Interesting how you avoid God's word.

 

[Iconoclast]

Silverhair,

I will say one thing, you are consistent wrong but consistent.

Glad you feel that way. That way I know I am on the right track.

If you cannot see the error of your theology then there really is not much hope for you[/QUOTE].

My hope is built on nothing less than Jesus and His righteousness.

You want a God that controls all your thoughts and actions

The biblical God is in control of whatsoever comes to pass.That is the God that has saved me and made Himself known to me

but I would rather follow the God of scripture.

I am glad to hear that is your desire. Let us know when you are going to resolve to do that.Set aside the free will idol you cling to, and we will know you are getting down to business.

Calvinism requires qualifications of scripture in order to have it fit.

Scripture informs Calvinism as to what is taught. Calvinists by the grace of God obey the scriptural teaching.

You can continue to live in your echo chamber,

Yes, I will continue to fellowship, learn, commune and grow, being edified by other Cal brothers, and others of good will who are known by God.

and I will just believe scripture.

Perhaps , and maybe the understanding will be given to you also.

 

[ad finitum]

Within the election of God we have the capacity to obey or disobey our King. Because we are also children of God, God will discipline us for our choices. The illegitimate ones God will ignore as they are not His children (read Hebrews 12).

We all make choices. No one says we don't. Those choices are allowed or disallowed based upon the ordained will of God and how our choices align with God's plan. We have no capacity to overpower or negate the will of God. It is in this fashion I say we do not exert free will in our own salvation. It is in fact extremely arrogant for any Christian to say they exercised free will in causing God to save them. Humans do not have that kind of power to move God to do as they have so chosen.

It is God's will that none should perish but all come to a change of mind. But some do perish in spite of God's will. 2 Peter 3:9

 

[ad finitum]

It is in fact extremely arrogant for any Christian to say they exercised free will in causing God to save them. Humans do not have that kind of power to move God to do as they have so chosen.

If God devised the plan of salvation for sinful man, before sinful man even existed, then there is no way that man is causing God to save him by choosing the free gift of salvation of his own free will.

Causation is antecedent, not subsequent. One of them came first, and the will of man is not it.

 

[Silverhair]

Siverhair, Mb, Van
It has been explained, you ignore it and remain ignorant. To complain to others who understand it , when you do not.
The term preterition describes God overlooking the non-elect persons.
He does not stop them from coming, but they have no desire.
just like you, Mb, and van have no desire to come to truth, but invent your own versions, suggesting that all of the confessing church has been mistaken.

Got Questions;
The Reformed doctrine of preterition says that God elects some people to salvation and leaves the rest of humanity in their fallen condition. The word preterition means “passing over” and, in the context of theology, “omission from God’s elect.” The word implies that God chose to “pass over” some people and save others. The Westminster Confession of Faith teaches preterition: “The rest of mankind [not the elect] God was pleased, according to the unsearchable counsel of His own will, whereby He extendeth or withholdeth mercy, as He pleaseth, for the glory of His Sovereign power over His creatures, to pass by; and to ordain them to dishonour and wrath for their sin, to the praise of His glorious justice” (Chapter III — Article VII).

t is important to differentiate preterition from double predestination. Double predestination teaches that God proactively elects some to heaven and proactively elects some to hell—it is a balanced predestination in that God is as equally active in choosing people for hell as He is in choosing people for heaven.
The problem is that double predestination is not taught in Scripture. The Bible nowhere says that God “elects” people to go to hell;
the only election mentioned in the Bible is that which sends people to heaven. Preterition, in contrast, teaches that God actively elects some to heaven and passively allows others to remain in their sin—it is an unbalanced predestination in that God is active toward some and inactive toward others. The doctrine of preterition is careful not to go beyond what the Bible teaches about predestination.

Chapter III.

Of God’s Eternal Decree.

I. God from all eternity did, by the most wise and holy counsel of His own will, freely, and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass:

Chapter III.

Of God’s Eternal Decree.

VII. The rest of mankind God was pleased, according to the unsearchable counsel of His own will, whereby He extendeth or withholdeth mercy, as He pleaseth, for the glory of His sovereign power over His creatures, to pass by; and to ordain them to dishonour and wrath, for their sin, to the praise of His glorious justice.

Now Iconoclast would you not agree that if God ordains whatever comes to pass and does that freely of His own will, that must include everything that comes to pass. Remember your sovereign God determines all things not just somethings. As one of your calvinist lights has said:

"God is incapable of knowing an undetermined future, and therefore, for God to be omniscient and all-knowing, no future could be left undetermined, or better yet, unscripted." (James White, Debating Calvinism, p.163)

In case you are unsure what he means by nothing left undetermined or unscripted, he is just saying that whatever happens is made to happen by God, good or bad.

So when the WCF or the LBCF says God has “ordain them to dishonour and wrath, for their sin” He is just doing that to them for sin that He ordained them to have.

I agree the bible does not say that God elects people to go to hell, the problem is that your theology does do that. So you have just agreed that your theology is not biblical.

Just a side note here, you may think that the information from a calvinist web site is good but it really does not impress me.

FYI the web site Got Questions is run by the person that called himself Humble Disciple.

 

[Silverhair]

Silverhair,



Glad you feel that way. That way I know I am on the right track.

Only if you think that a false doctrine called calvinism is the right track.