The Willingness of men

[Iconoclast]

Chapter III.

Of God’s Eternal Decree.

I. God from all eternity did, by the most wise and holy counsel of His own will, freely, and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass:

Chapter III.

Of God’s Eternal Decree.

VII. The rest of mankind God was pleased, according to the unsearchable counsel of His own will, whereby He extendeth or withholdeth mercy, as He pleaseth, for the glory of His sovereign power over His creatures, to pass by; and to ordain them to dishonour and wrath, for their sin, to the praise of His glorious justice.

Now Iconoclast would you not agree that if God ordains whatever comes to pass and does that freely of His own will, that must include everything that comes to pass. Remember your sovereign God determines all things not just somethings. As one of your calvinist lights has said:

"God is incapable of knowing an undetermined future, and therefore, for God to be omniscient and all-knowing, no future could be left undetermined, or better yet, unscripted." (James White, Debating Calvinism, p.163)

In case you are unsure what he means by nothing left undetermined or unscripted, he is just saying that whatever happens is made to happen by God, good or bad.

So when the WCF or the LBCF says God has “ordain them to dishonour and wrath, for their sin” He is just doing that to them for sin that He ordained them to have.

I agree the bible does not say that God elects people to go to hell, the problem is that your theology does do that. So you have just agreed that your theology is not biblical.

Just a side note here, you may think that the information from a calvinist web site is good but it really does not impress me.

FYI the web site Got Questions is run by the person that called himself Humble Disciple.

It does not matter who is at got questions...he got this basic definition correct.
I use the 1689 confession of faith and it does not read as you write here.
Also I have heard Dr.White teach on these things in person and know what he means on these things.
It is clear you desire to twist and distort what is taught by your own warped logic which is at odds with the confessional statement as well as Dr Whites teaching.
The difference is we know God is not the author of sin which you desire to ascribe to Him.
Your twisted ideas are not going to get far here.

 

[Iconoclast]

Here is the actual wording before you pervert it;
Of God's Decree — The 1689 Baptist Confession of Faith

 

[Iconoclast]

It is God's will that none should perish but all come to a change of mind. But some do perish in spite of God's will. 2 Peter 3:9

No...everyone spoken of in 2 pet3:9 gets saved, not one is lost.

 

[Iconoclast]

Only if you think that a false doctrine called calvinism is the right track.

You are in opposition to the truth of God.whenever you and your other two companions post we can pretty much just take the opposite view and have truth.

 

[ad finitum]

No...everyone spoken of in 2 pet3:9 gets saved, not one is lost.

If that were true, Peter would not be trying to stir up their minds and calling things to remembrance, lest they forget. There are not two contexts here. The scoffers are believers who have become faithless. Believers can become scoffers. Saved children go to college and lose their faith, becoming persuaded of atheism. Bart Ehrman comes to mind.

 

[Brightfame52]

silverhair

Since you support the TULIP answer how it does not make God the determiner of all those that go to hell

God is the determiner of who is going to hell for their sins.

 

[AustinC]

If God devised the planof salvation for sinful man, before sinful man even existed, then there is no way that man is causing God to save himby choosing the free gift of salvation of his own free will.

Causation is antecedent, not subsequent. One of them came first, and the will of man is not it.

Do you see your contradiction in thought?

In your first thought you imply (if) that God chose.
Then you switch and turn God into a passive, impotent being, who has no clue to whom He is giving a gift. Instead, God has a gift that He cannot give...until that smart and crafty human chooses Him over all other gods. Once that smart and crafty human chooses YHWH, then...and only then...can God actually give that smart and crafty human the gift He has for that smart and crafty human.

You have a wimpy god who, while having an inkling of who might positively react to him, is impotent to act until the human chooses his gift rather than another god's gift.

Moreso, and this is very important, the Bible NEVER teaches what you have stated. Instead, you have a few sentences, plucked out of context, that you throw into a blender to create your own flavor of salvation. It is time for you to put away childish things and grow in your knowledge of God. (I speak as one who held your false view for many, many years and had to repent before God for cheapening His gracious gift while lifting my self to a position I never held.)

 

[MB]

Do you see your contradiction in thought?

In your first thought you imply (if) that God chose.
Then you switch and turn God into a passive, impotent being, who has no clue to whom He is giving a gift. Instead, God has a gift that He cannot give...until that smart and crafty human chooses Him over all other gods. Once that smart and crafty human chooses YHWH, then...and only then...can God actually give that smart and crafty human the gift He has for that smart and crafty human.

You have a wimpy god who, while having an inkling of who might positively react to him, is impotent to act until the human chooses his gift rather than another god's gift.

There is nothing more ignorant than saying God is Wimpy. Especially when you place your self on such a high pedestal. All Christians have the same God or they would not call them selves Christian.

Moreso, and this is very important, the Bible NEVER teaches what you have stated. Instead, you have a few sentences, plucked out of context, that you throw into a blender to create your own flavor of salvation. It is time for you to put away childish things and grow in your knowledge of God. (I speak as one who held your false view for many, many years and had to repent before God for cheapening His gracious gift while lifting my self to a position I never held.)

What position would that be? You don't have a position except maybe as the top spreader of a false doctrines.
You have so much pride it's pitiful. You need to go take your medication.if you think God is wimpy.

 

[37818]

silverhair



God is the determiner of who is going to hell for their sins.

God already explained to His churches who are in Revelation 20:15.

 

[MB]

It does not matter who is at got questions...he got this basic definition correct.
I use the 1689 confession of faith and it does not read as you write here.
Also I have heard Dr.White teach on these things in person and know what he means on these things.
It is clear you desire to twist and distort what is taught by your own warped logic which is at odds with the confessional statement as well as Dr Whites teaching.
The difference is we know God is not the author of sin which you desire to ascribe to Him.
Your twisted ideas are not going to get far here.

I use the Bible it's God's word and far better than any confession of man.
MB

 

[MB]

silverhair



God is the determiner of who is going to hell for their sins.

Men are not predetermined for hell. They go to hell because they reject God and for no other reason.
MB

 

[MB]

You are in opposition to the truth of God.whenever you and your other two companions post we can pretty much just take the opposite view and have truth.

You don't have any truth at all.
MB

 

[MB]

It does not matter who is at got questions...he got this basic definition correct.
I use the 1689 confession of faith and it does not read as you write here.
Also I have heard Dr.White teach on these things in person and know what he means on these things.
It is clear you desire to twist and distort what is taught by your own warped logic which is at odds with the confessional statement as well as Dr Whites teaching.
The difference is we know God is not the author of sin which you desire to ascribe to Him.
Your twisted ideas are not going to get far here.

Do you know why your confession isn't in the Bible? answer; it's not true.
MB

 

[MB]

God already explained to His churches who are in Revelation 20:15.

Those who's name are written in the book of life.
MB

 

[37818]

Those who's name are written in the book of life.
MB

With the promise those born of God their names will not in any way be blotted out. Revelation 3:5, 1 John 5:4-5.

 

[ad finitum]

Do you see your contradiction in thought?

In your first thought you imply (if) that God chose.
Then you switch and turn God into a passive, impotent being, who has no clue to whom He is giving a gift.

How does pointing out that God planned salvation for man, before man existed, turning God into a passive being?

 

[AustinC]

There is nothing more ignorant than saying God is Wimpy. Especially when you place your self on such a high pedestal. All Christians have the same God or they would not call them selves Christian.

What position would that be? You don't have a position except maybe as the top spreader of a false doctrines.
You have so much pride it's pitiful. You need to go take your medication.if you think God is wimpy.

There is nothing more ignorant than a person teaching that God is wimpy, which is the free will teaching of God.

Paul laid out the position in his entire letter to the Romans where he destroys free will philosophy from start to finish. Read the whole letter. Memorize the whole letter. Submit to what Paul, by inspiration of God, tells you. You will abandon your current position when you do this.

 

[AustinC]

I use the Bible it's God's word and far better than any confession of man.
MB

Read Romans and let God conform you to His image.

 

[AustinC]

How does pointing out that God planned salvation for man, before man existed, turning God into a passive being?

God didn't "plan" and then hope the person would choose him.

God chose his children before the foundation of the world (Ephesians 1) and predestined them to redemption (Ephesians 1, Romans 8 - 11). God looked upon us in the deadness of our sins and chose to make us alive, give us faith and ordain good works for us to do (Ephesians 2).

You presented God as having a free gift, which he places down, says "Get your free gift here" and then waits for anyone smart enough to choose him. That's a wimpy god, who doesn't have the Supreme authority to act according to his own directive and save those who by nature are unwilling.

Romans 8:5-7

For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit. For to set the mind on the flesh is death, but to set the mind on the Spirit is life and peace. For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God’s law; indeed, it cannot.

 

[ad finitum]

God didn't "plan" and then hope the person would choose him.

He knew our hearts already before we existed. So He made provision for those hearts that would come into being and which hearts would act of their own free will -- a free will he would give to everyone -- to choose His deliverance. So He prepared that deliverance for those who would choose Him (of their own free will) before they even existed.

Calvinism seems to assume that if humans had free will to choose, that God would not be able to foresee those free will decisions and choose those people for a deliverance that He would prepare in advance for them.