The Willingness of men

[MB]

There is nothing more ignorant than a person teaching that God is wimpy, which is the free will teaching of God.

Paul laid out the position in his entire letter to the Romans where he destroys free will philosophy from start to finish. Read the whole letter. Memorize the whole letter. Submit to what Paul, by inspiration of God, tells you. You will abandon your current position when you do this.

Paul does not destroy freewill he endorsed it. Your just too ignorant to see that. Maybe I should have said to blind to see it so put in words you might understand. But I doubt you have the intelligence to understand anything above fiction.This is why you believe in the fiction of Calvinism.
MB

 

[MB]

Read Romans and let God conform you to His image.

I read and understand Romans every day. You on the other hand deny God's word for your Calvinism because it isn't found in scripture. I've seen you twist the truth. Changing God's word into something it does not say is sin and you do this every time your at BB.com.
You do the same things as the Jehovah's witnesses. I think you came from the JW's
MB

 

[Brightfame52]

Men are not predetermined for hell. They go to hell because they reject God and for no other reason.
MB

Yes they are, in the same way men are predetermined for heaven.

God predetermined people to reject the True God, to be disobedient . 1 Pet 2:8

8 And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.

 

[Iconoclast]

If that were true, Peter would not be trying to stir up their minds and calling things to remembrance, lest they forget. There are not two contexts here. The scoffers are believers who have become faithless. Believers can become scoffers. Saved children go to college and lose their faith, becoming persuaded of atheism. Bart Ehrman comes to mind.

Your conclusion has no scriptural basis.
The scoffers are in contrast to the elect believers .
Did you read through it.It is a letter.You need to work through it.
This is not high school English class where you invent strange ideas.

 

[AustinC]

He knew our hearts already before we existed. So He made provision for those hearts that would come into being and which hearts would act of their own free will -- a free will he would give to everyone -- to choose His deliverance. So He prepared that deliverance for those who would choose Him (of their own free will) before they even existed.

Here you state a philosophy not found in the Bible. You state a myth of your own making.

What does the Bible tell us? Read Romans and Ephesians. Read John 6, 10 and 17.

What you state above is pure fantasy on your part.

Calvinism seems to assume that if humans had free will to choose, that God would not be able to foresee those free will decisions and choose those people for a deliverance that He would prepare in advance for them.

You seem ignorant.
What does the Bible say?

Romans 8:29-30 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

Ephesians 1:3-14 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved. In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace, which he lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight making known to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth. In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will, so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of his glory. In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory.

John 6:44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.

John 10:25-29 Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in my Father’s name bear witness about me, but you do not believe because you are not among my sheep. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me,is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand.

John 17:20-26 “I do not ask for these only, but also for those who will believe in me through their word, that they may all be one, just as you, Father, are in me, and I in you, that they also may be in us, so that the world may believe that you have sent me. The glory that you have given me I have given to them, that they may be one even as we are one, I in them and you in me, that they may become perfectly one, so that the world may know that you sent me and loved them even as you loved me. Father, I desire that they also, whom you have given me, may be with me where I am, to see my glory that you have given me because you loved me before the foundation of the world. O righteous Father, even though the world does not know you, I know you, and these know that you have sent me. I made known to them your name, and I will continue to make it known, that the love with which you have loved me may be in them, and I in them.”

Notice that the Bible does not teach what you teach. God actively chooses, elects, adopts, predestined and drags people whom he calls his children and then gives them faith to believe.

Stop lifting your self up above your station. You and I are slaves while Jesus is King.

 

[AustinC]

I read and understand Romans every day. You on the other hand deny God's word for your Calvinism because it isn't found in scripture. I've seen you twist the truth. Changing God's word into something it does not say is sin and you do this every time your at BB.com.
You do the same things as the Jehovah's witnesses. I think you came from the JW's
MB

Meh, your post here shows you know nothing of what Paul says in his letter to the Romans. Come back after you have read it and studied it rather than falling on your faux statements.

 

[Iconoclast]

I use the Bible it's God's word and far better than anesey confession of man.
MB

Another foolish post and it is obvious why that is so.
You post as if these men did not use the bible and had never examined it.
Every Confession of faith identifies the BIBLE as the only rule of faith and practice.
You demonstrate that you cannot be taken seriously as you keep posting about things you know nothing about.
Your posts are meant to be destructive and yet the truth posted by all the others quickly identify the error and offer correction.
Take a break from posting.
Instead pray and ask God to help you understand scripture.
Then ask your questions and many here would offer help.

 

[Iconoclast]

You don't have any truth at all.
MB

Another sad empty post.
You cannot articulate a believing position.Get control of yourself.

 

[ad finitum]

Your conclusion has no scriptural basis.
The scoffers are in contrast to the elect believers .
Did you read through it.It is a letter.You need to work through it.
This is not high school English class where you invent strange ideas.

So some christian provides an interpretation of scripture. Some other christian scoffs at it. Does that sound familiar? Isn't that what happens on this board every day? Scoffers?

This is the kind of thing Peter is talking about. He's not talking about un-saved scoffing about doctrine. The unsaved don't know any doctrine. No. Instead, Peter is using the example of believers who become scoffers-of-doctrines as a warning to motivate his audience to be diligent in their own faith and not be like those who have fallen away from truths of the faith or have developed false views of prophecy and scripture, and not to be like them, scoffing at others who believe the "wrong ways of interpretation and thinking".

 

[Iconoclast]

Do you know why your confession isn't in the Bible? answer; it's not true.
MB

More ignorant posting.
The numbers are scripture...those numbers after the paragraphs...scripture

 

[ad finitum]

Here you state a philosophy not found in the Bible. You state a myth of your own making.

What does the Bible tell us? Read Romans and Ephesians. Read John 6, 10 and 17.

What you state above is pure fantasy on your part.


You seem ignorant.
What does the Bible say?

Romans 8:29-30 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

His foreknowledge is of free-will decisions. For those whom He foreknew would exercise free-will toward God's Good News, he predestined a purpose to be conformed to the image of Christ. The Gospel is the call to which the foreknown answer (God knew they would of their free will). He also prepared a destiny in advance (predestined) for those whom He foresaw would answer the call. That destiny is justification and glorification.

This is what Romans is talking about.

 

[AustinC]

Paul does not destroy freewill he endorsed it. Your just too ignorant to see that. Maybe I should have said to blind to see it so put in words you might understand. But I doubt you have the intelligence to understand anything above fiction.This is why you believe in the fiction of Calvinism.
MB

So provide his endorsement in the letter to the Romans.

 

[AustinC]

His foreknowledge is of free-will decisions. For those whom He foreknew would exercise free-will toward God's Good News, he predestined a purpose to be conformed to the image of Christ. The Gospel is the call to which the foreknown answer (God knew they would of their free will). He also prepared a destiny in advance (predestined) for those whom He foresaw would answer the call. That destiny is justification and glorification.

This is what Romans is talking about.

Again, you have zero scripture for your assertion and no, that's not what Romans is talking about.

Please provide passages on free will from Romans.

 

[MB]

Yes they are, in the same way men are predetermined for heaven.

God predetermined people to reject the True God, to be disobedient . 1 Pet 2:8

8 And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.

That is just plain sick Men go to hell because they choose to. Your post makes God a liar and in His word. I worship the creator of the Earth and the Universe. I have no idea what you worship. You've stumbled at God's word. Accusing Him falsely with your dung.
MB

 

[MB]

More ignorant posting.
The numbers are scripture...those numbers after the paragraphs...scripture

What is just plain idnorant is anyone who would stand by and let any Calvinist tell them the gospel.
MB

 

[MB]

Meh, your post here shows you know nothing of what Paul says in his letter to the Romans. Come back after you have read it and studied it rather than falling on your faux statements.

I know one thing for sure You certainly do not know.
MB

 

[MB]

So provide his endorsement in the letter to the Romans.

Find it your self.
MB

 

[Brightfame52]

That is just plain sick Men go to hell because they choose to. Your post makes God a liar and in His word. I worship the creator of the Earth and the Universe. I have no idea what you worship. You've stumbled at God's word. Accusing Him falsely with your dung.
MB

God destined them to disobedience to the word. They're the ones Paul writes about here 2 Thess 1:8

In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

God appointed them to disobey the Gospel so He will be Just in taking vengeance on them !

 

[ad finitum]

Again, you have zero scripture for your assertion and no, that's not what Romans is talking about.

Please provide passages on free will from Romans.

In the Bible, people are never persuaded to faith in one thing or another against their will. From this observation of Bible truth we can develop a valid principle with which to make interpretation of scripture.

In this light we realize that all the potter/clay illustrations are based upon the attitudes of the clay that God is working with -- the quality of the clay is the result of free-will decisions made by that clay. If the clay is rebellious, God cannot make a vessel of honor from it but only of dishonor. If the clay is obedient, God can make vessels of honor from the them.

The hardening of Pharaoh's heart is not God forcing him to rebel but rather presenting him with proof of His power and righteousness as one might cast pearls before swine, which only serves to entrench the swine in his rebellion because he is annoyed by truth (see Romans 1). In the parable of Lazarus and The Rich Man even one risen from the dead has no power to persuade someone to choose the truth who is determined in their opinion that they don't like the truth. When the pharisees learn of Lazarus miraculous raising from the dead, after being in the grave 4 days, they wish to kill Lazarus and put that raised man back into the grave. Is God reaching into their souls and making a hard shell around their free will? According to the Bible, that is completely unnecessary.

Did we get that? Forcing a soul, in possession of free will, to irresistibly change its mind is not what God is about. It violates God's whole demonstration from Genesis to the Revelation. Did we get that? Scripture itself demonstrates the futility and the tyranny of forcing people to do what they don't want to do. The Exodus proves that miracles have no power to persuade people to change their minds.

God puts His message out there to prove free will to the angels, to make a demonstration to them about who it is that will choose the Gospel of their own free will, in spite of the accident of their birth into the kingdoms of this world, ruled by the Devil. God didn't change Lucifer's mind to cause him to rebel. Neither does God change mankind's mind to rebel against the Devil's kingdom by choosing deliverance from it. Because that would make the Devil's case that God is responsible for the decisions made by His creatures.

This ironic error of Calvinism is that it's making the Devil's case that God is responsible for changing the free will of any creature to serve His purposes, and that if God didn't like Lucifer's decisions, well then it's His own fault. After all, God is the one who tampers with free will. Any Calvinist would agree.

Everything in the Bible is consistent when we understand that fallen man's capability of putting his faith in the Gospel is not crippled by his fallenness. Man is capable of despising his condition and of longing for a way of deliverance, however impossible to him. And he is capable of seeing good when it comes and he is able to rejoice in it and to choose it freely.

 

[Dave G]

Calvinists insist that the drawing of God is irresistible in Jn 6:44 then say it is not fair when I compare it to Jn 12:32.

I don't take my understanding of the Bible from John Calvin,
but I will say that to me, the drawing of God in John 6:44 is in context with all who are given ( and come ) to Christ in John 6:37-47, as well as John 6:64-65.
It is indeed "irresistible".

In other words, the passage describes that a person comes to ( trusts in, believes on ) Christ because they were given to Him by His Father.
Belief is equated with coming to Him, and in John 6:44, only those who are drawn by the Father will come to the Lord, and He will raise them up at the last day.

The two events are inseparably linked, and "the drawn" are the same who will be raised up when He comes again, at the last day of this "age", or rule by men.
The last day is the day that the Lord returns and gathers together His saints, both alive and "asleep", and is the first resurrection as Revelation 20:5 and 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 shows.

In addition, comparing both John 6:44 and John 12:32 all by themselves and isolating them from what is said in the words around them,
really does not do either of them justice, does it?
Let's see the passages in question:

" Jesus therefore answered and said unto them, Murmur not among yourselves. 44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. 45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me. ." (John 6:43-45 ) <------ "Inability" stated in no uncertain terms...
No man CAN come to Christ EXCEPT the Father does the drawing. Also, ALL who are drawn in such a manner will be raised up at the last day. There is the inseparable link, in that all who are drawn in such a way, will be raised up by Jesus Christ at the last day.

" And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all [men] unto me.
33 This he said, signifying what death he should die." ( John 12:32-33 ). <------- "Men" is in italics and not part of the text...neither in Greek nor in English, as the AV used italics to distinguish between words added for continuity and words that belonged in the text due to proper translation technique.
Here the Lord is saying that if He is lifted up, He will draw "all" to Him, no more and no less.

Revisiting John 12:32, which states that if Christ is lifted up from the earth, He will draw ALL ( not "men", just "all" ) to Him, I understand that "Calvinists" believe that this "all" is all of God's elect, not all men...and I happen to agree with them, for the most part.

Why?