The Willingness of Men 2

[ad finitum]

Whats an RPW?

I wondered as well:
Regulative principle of worship - Wikipedia

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Ah the arrogance of Calvinists is actually mind boggling. You think you are the only ones that could ever understand scripture as you have a deeper knowledge of same. But then again we know that other group that claimed that don't we GNOSTICS and they were condemned as heretics and rightly so.

You hold to your Calvinist theology and I will hold to the scriptures.

How pathetic this sort of thing is, and how easy to do!

Ah the arrogance of Free Willers is actually mind boggling. You think you are the only ones that could ever understand scripture as you have a deeper knowledge of same. But then again we know that other group that claimed that don't we GNOSTICS and they were condemned as heretics and rightly so.

You hold to your Free Will theology and I will hold to the scriptures

 

[AustinC]

Austin I do hope that you will come to a true understanding of scripture so that you can stop with these unfounded accusations. You keep studying and perhaps the light will come on for you.
Your determinism is such a crutch for you because you obviously do not believe you have the capacity to make logical decisions regarding your eternal future.That is why you hold onto Calvinism so tightly that way you are not responsible for any choices they are all made for you.

Perhaps, someday, you will read what you wrote and weep over your arrogance. I have bolded your arrogance.

Note that you teach rationalism as the means of saving yourself. You boast in your choice, while placing the King of Kings below you. It is your "logical decision" which you promote as your means of salvation. In that decision God could do nothing else but save you.

What I hold so tight to is Christ Jesus through whom and in whom I am saved. My justification is in Christ's amazing grace, by faith alone.

Honestly, why would I ever desire to boast in my "logical" choice, as you do? How would that bring glory and honor to the one who ransomed me from the shackles my sin placed upon me?

Someday you will weep over your arrogance. Someday.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

I have never said man saves himself that is just one of those canards that calvinists love to throw around. Anyone that thinks that man can save himself is delusional. And those that keep putting that forward as an accusation are just desperate.

You said that every verb in Romans 19:13 is Passive. I pointed out that you are wrong; that is all.

My question for you Martin is "Do you really think that God saves those that don't believe?" You must as your theology states that you have to be born again/regenerated so you can believe. Even your Calvinist Ordo Salutis states that.

No one can be saved without believing in the Lord Jesus Christ, just as no one can be saved without being born from above. Try not to be silly.
There are texts that attribute salvation to faith without speaking of rebirth (e.g. Acts of the Apostles16:31). There are texts that attribute salvation to regeneration without speaking of faith (e.g. Titus 3:4-6). There are others that speak of both (e.g. John 3:3-5, 15-16; 1 Peter 1:3-5). But note that in the two last examples, rebirth comes before faith. That is the divine order, Lydia must have her heart opened by God before she can pay heed to the words of Paul. The reason for that is laid out in 1 Corinthians 2:14

Man has to believe in Christ Jesus before they are saved. Now I know you are going to disagree but let us see what the bible says.
Regeneration G3824
new birth, reproduction, renewal, recreation, regeneration Thayer
Born G1080
Again G509
from above, from a higher place Thayer

Absolutely Man has to believe before he is saved, but there must be a Divine work of grace on his heart before he can believe.

So yes I agree man is saved by God and it is because of his faith in our risen Lord and not unto faith as Calvinists like to posit.

Once again, you simply don't understand. I know of no orthodox Calvinist who suggests that people are saved so that they may believe. They are regenerated so that they may believe and be saved by grace through faith (Ephesians 2:8).[/QUOTE]

 

[ad finitum]

Note that you teach rationalism as the means of saving yourself.

Is faith a work?

 

[Silverhair]

How pathetic this sort of thing is, and how easy to do!

Ah the arrogance of Free Willers is actually mind boggling. You think you are the only ones that could ever understand scripture as you have a deeper knowledge of same. But then again we know that other group that claimed that don't we GNOSTICS and they were condemned as heretics and rightly so.

You hold to your Free Will theology and I will hold to the scriptures

Problem for you martin is that that attitude has been expressed by calvinists even on here. How many times have you all said such. What I find most interesting is that when clear scripture is presented that shows the error of your thinking you will not deal with it but instead try to deflect away from it by some calvinist canard.

But since you have been determined by God to think they way you do then it really is wrong to hold you responsible for your views. The lack of independent though must be a real comfort for you.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Problem for you martin is that that attitude has been expressed by calvinists even on here. How many times have you all said such. What I find most interesting is that when clear scripture is presented that shows the error of your thinking you will not deal with it but instead try to deflect away from it by some calvinist canard.

Actually you have wrongly claimed it so many times that you think you must be right

But since you have been determined by God to think they way you do then it really is wrong to hold you responsible for your views. The lack of independent though must be a real comfort for you.

Thank you for the compliment. I have no desire to think outside of God's truth '.....That you may learn in us not to think beyond what is written' (1 Corinthians 4:6). I leave that to you.

 

[AustinC]

Is faith a work?

Faith is a gift, given to the person God makes alive with Christ. (Ephesians 2:4-9). Faith is authored and completed by Jesus (Hebrews 12:3).

What you and Silverhair are talking about cannot happen to the person who is still dead in trespasses and sins. (Ephesians 2:1-3) Why you cannot accept this truth in God's word is really the mystery.

 

[ad finitum]

Faith is a gift, given to the person God makes alive with Christ. (Ephesians 2:4-9). Faith is authored and completed by Jesus (Hebrews 12:3).

What you and Silverhair are talking about cannot happen to the person who is still dead in trespasses and sins. (Ephesians 2:1-3) Why you cannot accept this truth in God's word is really the mystery.

But can you answer the question, whether it is a gift or not a gift, "Is faith a work?"

 

[Silverhair]

How pathetic this sort of thing is, and how easy to do!

Ah the arrogance of Free Willers is actually mind boggling. You think you are the only ones that could ever understand scripture as you have a deeper knowledge of same. But then again we know that other group that claimed that don't we GNOSTICS and they were condemned as heretics and rightly so.

You hold to your Free Will theology and I will hold to the scriptures

Martin that is just a childish response, not what I would expect from you.

As for the GNOSTICS they were the one that were deterministic
which is just what you calvinists claim but is most assuredly not what I believe. As far as understanding the bible well I am not the one that has to change words or even the meaning of words so they fit my theology.

You may not like the idea of a God given free will but that is what the bible shows. You on the other hand are comfortable with everything you think and do being determined but that is not biblical.

 

[Silverhair]

Perhaps, someday, you will read what you wrote and weep over your arrogance. I have bolded your arrogance.

Note that you teach rationalism as the means of saving yourself. You boast in your choice, while placing the King of Kings below you. It is your "logical decision" which you promote as your means of salvation. In that decision God could do nothing else but save you.

What I hold so tight to is Christ Jesus through whom and in whom I am saved. My justification is in Christ's amazing grace, by faith alone.

Honestly, why would I ever desire to boast in my "logical" choice, as you do? How would that bring glory and honor to the one who ransomed me from the shackles my sin placed upon me?

Someday you will weep over your arrogance. Someday.

I am amazed that you claim to follow the bible yet deny what it says.
Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith;
Joh 3:17 "For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him.
Joh 3:36 "He who believes in the Son has eternal life;
Rom 10:13 for "WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED."
Eph 1:13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,
Joh_3:15 so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life.
Joh_6:29 ... "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent."

Can you not see that God has set a condition for salvation, faith/belief. How can you ignore what the bible says. Calvinists keep saying that God has to save you then gives you faith so you can believe but that is not biblical and you know it.So why do you insist on holding on to that idea.

Now I know you are going to disagree about your being saved before you believe but I pointed the same thing out to Martin.

Man has to believe in Christ Jesus before they are saved. Now I know you are going to disagree but let us see what the bible says.
Regeneration G3824
new birth, reproduction, renewal, recreation, regeneration Thayer
Born G1080
Again G509
from above, from a higher place Thayer

So yes I agree man is saved by God and it is because of his faith in our risen Lord and not unto faith as Calvinists like to posit. How many of you have said you have to be regenerated before you can have faith?

Rom_4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness,

Now you can see from this verse that we are save by faith not works and we are justified/saved because of our faith.

Now you may be asking why would someone call on Christ Jesus to be saved. Well Paul answers that for you

Rom 10:14 How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher?
Rom 10:15 And how shall they preach unless they are sent?

You can ignore what I say and it does not matter but when you deny what the bible says that does matter.

 

[AustinC]

But can you answer the question, whether it is a gift or not a gift, "Is faith a work?"

Faith does good works, which God has ordained for us to do (Ephesians 2:10).

So, faith is not, in itself, a work. Faith is the reason by which the child of God does the good works God has for him/her to do.

How is it that you do not understand this truth?

 

[AustinC]

I am amazed that you claim to follow the bible yet deny what it says.
Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith;
Joh 3:17 "For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him.
Joh 3:36 "He who believes in the Son has eternal life;
Rom 10:13 for "WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED."
Eph 1:13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,
Joh_3:15 so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life.
Joh_6:29 ... "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent."

Can you not see that God has set a condition for salvation, faith/belief. How can you ignore what the bible says. Calvinists keep saying that God has to save you then gives you faith so you can believe but that is not biblical and you know it.So why do you insist on holding on to that idea.

Now I know you are going to disagree about your being saved before you believe but I pointed the same thing out to Martin.

Man has to believe in Christ Jesus before they are saved. Now I know you are going to disagree but let us see what the bible says.
Regeneration G3824
new birth, reproduction, renewal, recreation, regeneration Thayer
Born G1080
Again G509
from above, from a higher place Thayer

So yes I agree man is saved by God and it is because of his faith in our risen Lord and not unto faith as Calvinists like to posit. How many of you have said you have to be regenerated before you can have faith?

Rom_4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness,

Now you can see from this verse that we are save by faith not works and we are justified/saved because of our faith.

Now you may be asking why would someone call on Christ Jesus to be saved. Well Paul answers that for you

Rom 10:14 How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher?
Rom 10:15 And how shall they preach unless they are sent?

You can ignore what I say and it does not matter but when you deny what the bible says that does matter.

I can see, dear sir, that you abuse God's word by neglecting the full context of scripture as you use sentences, out of context, to conjure up your false gospel and your philosophy that is anathema to the God you claim to know.

 

[Silverhair]

Actually you have wrongly claimed it so many times that you think you must be right

Thank you for the compliment. I have no desire to think outside of God's truth '.....That you may learn in us not to think beyond what is written' (1 Corinthians 4:6). I leave that to you.

But what you have failed to understand is that according to you own theology God may just be letting you think you are saved so that when He finally dooms you it will be for His greater glory. Martin you can never really know if your faith is real because it is not something you chose but is something that, according to calvinism, God gave you. And you will never know until you die so you have to live in fear that you may be wrong.
That is the reality of Calvinism that so many of you just deny and stick your head in the sand about.

 

[Silverhair]

I can see, dear sir, that you abuse God's word by neglecting the full context of scripture as you use sentences, out of context, to conjure up your false gospel and your philosophy that is anathema to the God you claim to know.

Gee I am just following the lead that all you calvinists gave. If you think those verses do not support what I said then show me the errors don't just made useless comments.
I note that you did not refute any of them when I have posted them before so I do not expect it now.

 

[AustinC]

But what you have failed to understand is that according to you own theology God may just be letting you think you are saved so that when He finally dooms you it will be for His greater glory. Martin you can never really know if your faith is real because it is not something you chose but is something that, according to calvinism, God gave you. And you will never know until you die so you have to live in fear that you may be wrong.
That is the reality of Calvinism that so many of you just deny and stick your head in the sand about.

Wow, such ignorance on your part is astounding to me.
Who, other than you, would ever think "God may just be letting you think you are saved so that when He finally dooms you it will be for His greater glory."?

It is so sad that you do not know what God tells us. Instead, you glorify your self and your choice. You are showing you are, by nature, self-centered...even in your claim to be saved.

Romans 8:1-4,14-17
There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. For the law of the Spirit of life has set you free in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death. For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do. By sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, he condemned sin in the flesh, in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

For all who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God. For you did not receive the spirit of slavery to fall back into fear, but you have received the Spirit of adoption as sons, by whom we cry, “Abba! Father!” The Spirit himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, and if children, then heirs—heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, provided we suffer with him in order that we may also be glorified with him.

How is it that you are so arrogant before the God who chose you? I am shocked by your denigration of God as you lift up yourself. God forbid anyone listen to your madness.

 

[Salty]

Six hour warning

This thread will be closed no sooner than 9 pm EDT /6 pm PDT

 

[ad finitum]

Faith does good works, which God has ordained for us to do (Ephesians 2:10).

So, faith is not, in itself, a work. Faith is the reason by which the child of God does the good works God has for him/her to do.

How is it that you do not understand this truth?

Ok. I'm just trying to understand the objection to the idea that fallen man could have faith of his own free will. There are no works in that scenario so I don't understand their objection.

 

[MB]

Do you really suppose that Calvinists believe that God saves people who don't believe?
BTW, 'Shall be saved' in verse 13 is passive. People don't save themselves.

No but God does save when you follow the instructions laid out by God's Word. Such as in
Act 16:31 and they said, 'Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved—thou and thy house;'
The thing that always bothers me is that Calvinist think they are saved before belief. I wonder by what instruction.
MB

 

[MB]

My goodness, you want to ignore the whole of Romans. Look at you, desperate to change what Paul wrote.

Read Romans 9. The non-elect Esau is certainly in view. Remember that God chose Jacob and rejected Esau before they ever were born or could do right or wrong.

While true I do not see how this proves your false Calvinism. Not to mention Both Jacob and Esau were Jews. It has nothing to do with you. No where in scripture does it ever say Gentiles are elect..
MB