Soteriology 102

[Van]

I notice you keep snipping out the Bible, Van.
I also notice you do not address me directly. When you do this you discredit yourself.

The point I make is that through faith is referring to Christ and his gift of faith. The point is made by the scripture you snip. Why do you snip the Bible, Van? Why do you avoid it when it reveals you are wrong?

Are you yet again being allowed to advocate rule violation? Are you posting gratuitous insults? Are you yet again being allowed to post off topic posts.

Here is scripture - 2 Thessalonians 2:13:
But we should always give thanks to God for you, brothers and sisters beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth.
And here is the rewrite of Calvinism:
But we should always give thanks to God for you, brothers and sisters beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation not through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth.

According to the false doctrine of Calvinism God has chosen you unconditionally and not through faith in the truth.

You want another "through faith" verse that Calvinism rewrites to say "not through faith? There are many of them!

You want another example? How about "your faith" written to mean "not your faith?" There are many of them as well.

How about God credits our faith as righteousness for our benefit? No Siree, according to Calvinism God does not credit our faith for our benefit, He instills via irresistible grace His faith and then credits that faith as righteousness. I kid you not...

Calvinism snips our scripture, adds to scripture and rewrites scripture at every turn. Go figure

 

[Dave G]

I revealed myself to those who did not ask for me; I was found by those who did not seek me.
To a nation that did not call on my name, I said, Here am I, here am I.

This reminds me of :

" But I say, Did not Israel know? First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are no people, and by a foolish nation I will anger you. But Esaias is very bold, and saith, I was found of them that sought me not; I was made manifest unto them that asked not after me. " ( Romans 10:19-20 ).

 

[Dave G]

According to the false doctrine of Calvinism God has chosen you unconditionally and not through faith in the truth.

According to the Bible, Van, God chooses someone unconditionally and through their belief of the truth, for that is what it says in 2 Thessalonians 2:13 and other passages that are brought to bear on the subject.

How you keep arriving at the above, I do not know, my friend.

 

[Van]

According to the Bible, Van, God chooses someone unconditionally and through their belief of the truth, for that is what it says in 2 Thessalonians 2:13 and other passages that are brought to bear on the subject.

How you keep arriving at the above, I do not know, my friend.

Once again Calvinism's defense requires falsehoods. No verse says God chooses individuals for salvation unconditionally.

Folks just read 2 Thessalonians 2:13, or James 2:5 (and ignore if necessary the added "to be"). Then there are all those verses saying we receive the blessing of salvation through or by reason of faith such as John 3:16.

 

[Dave G]

Once again Calvinism's defense requires falsehoods.

Please remember ( if I've never made you aware of it ), Van, that I'm not a "Calvinist" and never have been.
I came to Christ through His words in 1978 during a revival in an Independent Fundamental Baptist church.

Yet you keep accusing me of being one.

I am not, and I'm merely pointing out what the Scriptures say...yet it seems that you reject it.
Again, why you keep doing this, I do not know.

No verse says God chooses individuals for salvation unconditionally.

Acts of the Apostles 2:39,
Acts of the Apostles 2:47.
Acts of the Apostles 13:48.
Romans 8:29-30.
Psalms 65:4.
John 6:37-65.
John 17:2.
1 Corinthians 1:30.
Ephesians 1:4-5
Ephesians 1:11.
Ephesians 2:10.
1 Thessalonians 1:4.
2 Thessalonians 2:13-14.
2 Timothy 1:9.

 

[Dave G]

@Van :

"Soteriology 101" is Jesus Christ crucified for our sins ( 1 Corinthians 15:1-7 ).
"Soteriology 102" is God saving someone by His mercy and through the efforts of His Son on their behalf ( 1 Corinthians 1:18-31 ).

All other "courses" that we find in His word on the subject, keep coming back to one thing, my friend...
Salvation is of the Lord, and not men.
Nothing that we can do, either with His assistance or without it, will ever merit us eternal life.

It's a gift ( Romans 6:23 ), not a reward for our efforts at seeking Him.

 

[Van]

Please remember, Van, that I'm not a "Calvinist".
Yet you keep accusing me of being one.

Acts of the Apostles 2:39,
Acts of the Apostles 2:47.
Acts of the Apostles 13:48.
Romans 8:29-30.
Psalms 65:4.
John 6:37-65.
John 17:2.
Ephesians 1:4-5
Ephesians 1:11.
Ephesians 2:10.
1 Thessalonians 1:4.
2 Thessalonians 2:13-14.
2 Timothy 1:9.

Dave G is a Calvinist. He lists verses but fails to indicate what they supposedly indicate. Calvinism rewrites scripture at every turn. Through faith = not through faith, your faith = not your faith, and so forth and so on...

 

[Van]

@Van :

"Soteriology 101" is God saving someone.
"Soteriology 102" is God saving someone.

All other "courses" that we find in His word on the subject, keep coming back to one thing, my friend...
Salvation is of the Lord, and not men.

Nothing that we can do, either with His assistance or without it, will ever merit us eternal life.
It's a gift ( Romans 6:23 ), not a reward for our efforts at seeking Him.

Yet another falsehood by implication. This is all they do, post insults and falsehoods. Salvation does not depend on the person who wills to be saved, Romans 9:16. Faith is not works, Romans 4:16. We are saved by grace through or by reason of faith.

Folks just read 2 Thessalonians 2:13, or James 2:5 (and ignore if necessary the added "to be"). Then there are all those verses saying we receive the blessing of salvation through or by reason of faith such as John 3:16.

 

[Dave G]

Salvation does not depend on the person who wills to be saved, Romans 9:16.

Amen.
Please see the rest of Romans 9 for why people are saved.

It has to do with Him loving one, and hating another ( Romans 9:13 )...
One being an object of His mercy and compassion or not ( Romans 9:14-18, Exodus 33:19 )...
One being afore prepared unto glory, and another being fitted for destruction ( Romans 9:22-24 ).

Faith is not works, Romans 4:16.

Amen again.
But a person's belief is a "work"...the work of God ( John 6:29 ), not a work of men.

Therefore, it is not a "work" in the sense of man's unworthy works that we use to gain something that we do not have...a filthy work that is as filthy rags to God because it is not His work in and through us.

We are saved by grace through or by reason of faith.

I'm sorry, Van,
but to me you keep saying that believers are saved through faith ( that a believer's faith is involved ) , and then you add that God saves us because of it.
There is a difference...

As before, I think you are missing the significance of Hebrews 12:2, Hebrews 11:1, 2 Thessalonians 3:2, Ephesians 2:8, and Galatians 5:22, as examples;
And then equate salvation as a reward based on a person's belief, and not a gift of God that accompanies the gift of eternal life where people believe it because they are ordained to eternal life ( Acts of the Apostles 13:48 ), because they were given to Christ by the Father ( John 6:37-65, John 17:2 ) and because they are Christ's sheep ( John 10:26-27 ).

To me, what you are describing is not what the Bible teaches and never has been.

 

[Van]

SNIP
and then you add that God saves us because of it.
SNIP
And then equate salvation as a reward based on a person's belief, and not a gift of God that accompanies the gift of eternal life.
SNIP
.

Yet another Calvinist making up false charges and posting them to change the subject from their unbiblical doctrines. Did you see any quotes with a reference to my post containing the quote? Nope

Did I say God chooses us through or by reason of faith in the truth? Yes Does God at times not choose an individual by reason of their faith? You bet, for example the second and third soils of Matthew 13. If a person's worthless dirty rag faith is credited by God as righteousness, only then is a person saved by reason of that credited faith.

Does our faith earn or merit the reward of salvation? Nope, Romans 9:16.

 

[Dave G]

et another Calvinist making up false charges and posting them to change the subject from their unbiblical doctrines.

Again, I'm not a "Calvinist" and never have been.

I will keep re-iterating this as long as you keep accusing me of identifying with a man instead of with my Saviour and His every word, Van.
I do not and never have taken my understanding of God's word from men or institutions of men.

Did you see any quotes with a reference to my post containing the quote? Nope

We are completely on-topic Van.
To me, it seems that you keep changing the subject in order to avoid addressing the Scriptures I've listed in disagreement with your assertions.

I'm sure many of those who read this would concur that I am disagreeing with you, and stating why.

Did I say God chooses us through or by reason of faith in the truth? Yes

Yes, you did.
Did I say that God's choice of the sinner to salvation is totally apart from the underlined?

Yes, as that is how I see the Scriptures stating it, and I believe that I've shown why.

 

[Van]

Here is scripture - 2 Thessalonians 2:13:
But we should always give thanks to God for you, brothers and sisters beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth.
And here is the rewrite of Calvinism:
But we should always give thanks to God for you, brothers and sisters beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation not through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth.

According to the false doctrine of Calvinism God has chosen you unconditionally and not through faith in the truth.

You want another "through faith" verse that Calvinism rewrites to say "not through faith? There are many of them!

You want another example? How about "your faith" written to mean "not your faith?" There are many of them as well.

How about God credits our faith as righteousness for our benefit? No Siree, according to Calvinism God does not credit our faith for our benefit, He instills via irresistible grace His faith and then credits that faith as righteousness. I kid you not...

Calvinism snips our scripture, adds to scripture and rewrites scripture at every turn. Go figure

 

[Dave G]

Does God at times not choose an individual by reason of their faith?

That's the only way that He chooses them, Van.
That's how He chose Paul, for example, and then manifested Himself, through His Son, to him on the road to Damascus.

If a person's worthless dirty rag faith is credited by God as righteousness, only then is a person saved by reason of that credited faith.

Does our faith earn or merit reward of salvation? Nope, Romans 9:16.

But you just said that it does ( in the first part of this quote ), by telling them that a person's "worthless dirty rag faith" is credited by God as righteousness,
instead of telling them that even their faith that God credits as righteousness is itself a gift from God.

God saving them because of something they inherently have or do, versus nothing that they have or do...
Merit versus lack of merit.

Merit is the process by which someone gains something ( a reward ) by trading something that they have, for something that they want....
Which you've just described above.

Lack of merit is the process by which gifts are given to people through no conscious effort of their own.
Do you not see that?

 

[Dave G]

According to the false doctrine of Calvinism God has chosen you unconditionally and not through faith in the truth.

You want another "through faith" verse that Calvinism rewrites to say "not through faith? There are many of them!

You want another example? How about "your faith" written to mean "not your faith?" There are many of them as well.

How about God credits our faith as righteousness for our benefit? No Siree, according to Calvinism God does not credit our faith for our benefit, He instills via irresistible grace His faith and then credits that faith as righteousness. I kid you not...

Calvinism snips our scripture, adds to scripture and rewrites scripture at every turn. Go figure

According to the Bible, Van, you are in disobedience to His word when you vilify people in the sight of others.
How you cannot see this, I do not know.

My hope is that you will re-read the Scriptures in places like Romans 12, Colossians 3, Titus 3:1-2 and others, and take them to heart.

Regardless of disagreement,
as believers we are to treat even our enemies with the kindness that the Lord has shown to us through His Son.

 

[Van]

Dave G is a 5 point Calvinist. Take that to the bank.
Dave G claims he has posted a verse that says people are chosen for salvation unconditionally! This is a material false statement. People are chosen but the reason is not given in those verses. Or people are chosen for another purpose unconditionally.

 

[Dave G]

Dave G is a 5 point Calvinist. Take that to the bank.

Yes, I freely admit to agreeing with the so-called "Five Points" as described here:

Calvinism and Arminianism comparison
An Outline of the FACTS of Arminianism vs. The TULIP of Calvinism

I can also find all of those "points" of "Calvinism" described and fully supported in God's word.

People are chosen but the reason is not given in those verses.

In some of them it is, and in others it is given in the chapters ( and in the same letters ) that those "verses" are taken from.

That said,
I'll make this my final reply to you in this thread, Van, and wish you well.

 

[Reformed1689]

I already cited a lexicon. Why are you pretending to be unable to read or search scripture? Are you yet again being allowed to harass me?

Which lexicon did you cite? I didn't see a citation.

 

[Reformed1689]

Dave G is a 5 point Calvinist. Take that to the bank.
Dave G claims he has posted a verse that says people are chosen for salvation unconditionally! This is a material false statement. People are chosen but the reason is not given in those verses. Or people are chosen for another purpose unconditionally.

John:36-65 shows unconditional election.

 

[Van]

Ephesians 2:8 NASB
For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this salvation is not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;

The Greek construction of "though faith" is "dia pisteos." The preposition "dia" has the instrumentality meanings of "by means of" and "by reason of" and "because of." Calvinism claims the meaning of the phrase is "not through faith" or the opposite of what scripture teaches. But for those who believe scripture means what it says, then faith provides either the means by which we are saved or faith is the reason for which we were saved. The second meaning is the correct one, as the means by which we are saved is the precious blood of Christ.

Romans 4:23-24 teaches God will credit the faith of those who believe - God raised Jesus from the dead - for the believer's benefit. Some deny that benefit is salvation, but it would be absurd to say God saves those whose faith He does not credit as righteousness.

 

[Van]

Which lexicon did you cite? I didn't see a citation.

Soteriology 101