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What do you make of The Pilgrim's Progress by John Bunyan?

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by DaveXR650, Nov 10, 2021.

  1. DaveXR650

    DaveXR650 Well-Known Member

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    Most of us are familiar with The Pilgrims Progress by John Bunyan. Bunyan was a Calvinist but when I read Pilgrim's Progress it seems to me that the general tenor of the story is very Armenian. Each point along the way seems to have many dangers and the real possibility of not just failure but total destruction. It seems that you could get right up to the end and still not make it. I know he was a Calvinist but he certainly didn't seem to think that it was a done deal that he would persevere. It seems that he was never self conscious of his eternal security. What do you all think?
     
  2. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

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    I agree with Bunyan.
    The writer to the Hebrews warns Christians against drifting while still confidently believing the readers will persevere.
    An evidence of faith is perseverance along the whole path. Pilgrim didn't stop going when his burden fell away at the cross. So, we do not stop going after our first confession. Instead we work out our salvation with fear and trembling as we persevere.
    One of the great fallacies of the OSAS group is the faction that teaches if you said the sinners prayer you are saved no matter if you keep sinning. If you keep sinning with no repentance, you aren't saved.
     
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  3. Silverhair

    Silverhair Well-Known Member

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    I have not read the book but I think I will have to pick one up. If what DaveXR650 has said is what Bunyan wrote in his book then he just sounds biblical. I have never been a fan of labels like Calvinist or Arminian, Labels tend to separate people. I would rather just be called a disciple of Christ Jesus. In other words a learner.

    As for OSAS I have never seen how that works form a biblical perspective.
     
  4. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

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    You...are not a fan of labels? Really? I would never know it from reading your posts.
    Here you go. Enjoy. It's one of my favorite books. I have read it multiple times. There are two parts. First the progress of Christian and then, later, the progress of Christian's wife and children. Many tend to read only the first, but the fullness of what Bunyan is teaching via allegory is best understood by reading both.
    John Bunyan: Pilgrim's Progress - Christian Classics Ethereal Library
     
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  5. DaveXR650

    DaveXR650 Well-Known Member

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    Well I agree and what made me want to start this thread is the perception I have that people in the days of the Puritans did not do in practice something we do today - namely we take the theological system and logic that we hold to and then whatever scripture we read or sermon we hear we have as out main goal to bend it if necessary to fit our theology. I have read tons of Puritan writings and they didn't do that. For instance if they come to a passage that says you have to repent and believe they don't immediately begin to modify it to fit a particular soteriology - they would be content to say you have to repent and believe.

    In other words you don't find a lot of instances where writers in that day were self conscious of the Calvinistic system they believed. Is it possible we are doing something wrong in the way we apply these systems, or was it just that in the time period of the Puritans the theology wasn't developed fully? Or am I just wrong about this - which is quite possible.
     
  6. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    The writer to the Hebrews warns HEBREW Christians against drifting back to the apostate Judaism that murdered Christ, which that generation was very soon to have 'the wrath to come' upon them.
     
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  7. DaveXR650

    DaveXR650 Well-Known Member

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    Austin C certainly doesn't need me defending him but this is kinda what I'm talking about. A Puritan would read a warning like that in Hebrews to be a warning to him - living in England in 1650. Those warning in Hebrews chapter 6 and 10 used to scare me to death by the way.
     
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  8. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    30 For we know him that said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
    31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God. Heb 10

    Audience relevance is of utmost importance when interpreting scripture.
     
  9. just-want-peace

    just-want-peace Well-Known Member
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    One of the most sensible comments I've read concerning this topic
     
  10. Silverhair

    Silverhair Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for the link. I only use the label as a shorthand. It is more to point out the theological view that you are putting forward. Does the clear the water a bit?
     
  11. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

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    One can hold this view, but we would miss the fact it was written to the covenant people of the promise, which is every person in the church. The writer warns you and me to take heed of what we are being taught lest we drift away. It is a personal warning to you and me as well.
     
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  12. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

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    Still Mississippi waters my friend. You tend to fall on labels as your crutch to keep you from leaving your post.
     
  13. Jerome

    Jerome Well-Known Member
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    Bunyan on labels:

    "And since you would know by what name I would be distinguished from others; I tell you, I would be, and hope I am, A CHRISTIAN; and choose, if God should count me worthy, to be called a Christian, a Believer, or other such name which is approved by the Holy Ghost (Acts 11:26). And as for those factious titles of Anabaptists, Independents, Presbyterians, or the like, I conclude, that they came neither from Jerusalem, nor Antioch, but rather from hell and Babylon" — John Bunyan, Peaceable Principles and True
     
  14. Earth Wind and Fire

    Earth Wind and Fire Well-Known Member
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    I’ve never been a fan of allegory but that’s just me. I find them boring and uninteresting and not inspiring in any way. However I did actually try to read it on two occasions… just not my cup of tea I’m afraid.
     
  15. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

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    Read the scripture references. It will give you an understanding of Bunyans theology regarding the work of God in the life of a Christian.
     
  16. Dave G

    Dave G Well-Known Member

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    I agree...it does seem that way, and I know that I've often wondered about my own salvation many times in the past.
    The story does appear written from the standpoint of works, but when I look at it and then compare it with what I see in the Bible and how many men and women of true faith lived, the book is very close to my own walk, experience-wise.

    In other words, I see that we as believers go through this life and it really is very much a fight to stick with Him at times...
    But from His perspective, He does the keeping, despite the bumpy road that we are feeling.
    Similar to the above, for many years neither did I...at least for myself.

    I know what God's word teaches, but I have often despaired and reasoned that it didn't apply to me...
    Probably because for the first 25 years of my walk with the Lord I made a wreck of things, and therefore shipwrecked my conscience towards the Lord...

    But my faith, which the Lord gave me, held... and my confidence and faith were not only restored, but have grown very much.
    Sounds a lot like me, until recently. ;)
     
    #16 Dave G, Nov 11, 2021
    Last edited: Nov 11, 2021
  17. Dave G

    Dave G Well-Known Member

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    Me too, until I began to understand them more.
     
  18. 1689Dave

    1689Dave Well-Known Member

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    I understand it a bit differently. It is Christ's blood and imputed righteousness that save us. Our works can amount to nothing more than wood, hay, and stubble and not pass the test. But we are eternally secure in Christ regardless of our works. Our works must be a labor of love before they gain added value in the resurrection.

    Had you died in the course of a serious back-slide, your works would fail you, but you are still eternally secure in Christ.

    A way to confirm this position is when Paul delivered the incestuous brother to Satan for the destruction of the flesh so his salvation would remain secure.
     
    #18 1689Dave, Nov 12, 2021
    Last edited: Nov 12, 2021
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