What do you make of The Pilgrim's Progress by John Bunyan?

[DaveXR650]

Most of us are familiar with The Pilgrims Progress by John Bunyan. Bunyan was a Calvinist but when I read Pilgrim's Progress it seems to me that the general tenor of the story is very Armenian. Each point along the way seems to have many dangers and the real possibility of not just failure but total destruction. It seems that you could get right up to the end and still not make it. I know he was a Calvinist but he certainly didn't seem to think that it was a done deal that he would persevere. It seems that he was never self conscious of his eternal security. What do you all think?

 

[AustinC]

Most of us are familiar with The Pilgrims Progress by John Bunyan. Bunyan was a Calvinist but when I read Pilgrim's Progress it seems to me that the general tenor of the story is very Armenian. Each point along the way seems to have many dangers and the real possibility of not just failure but total destruction. It seems that you could get right up to the end and still not make it. I know he was a Calvinist but he certainly didn't seem to think that it was a done deal that he would persevere. It seems that he was never self conscious of his eternal security. What do you all think?

I agree with Bunyan.
The writer to the Hebrews warns Christians against drifting while still confidently believing the readers will persevere.
An evidence of faith is perseverance along the whole path. Pilgrim didn't stop going when his burden fell away at the cross. So, we do not stop going after our first confession. Instead we work out our salvation with fear and trembling as we persevere.
One of the great fallacies of the OSAS group is the faction that teaches if you said the sinners prayer you are saved no matter if you keep sinning. If you keep sinning with no repentance, you aren't saved.

 

[Silverhair]

I agree with Bunyan.
The writer to the Hebrews warns Christians against drifting while still confidently believing the readers will persevere.
An evidence of faith is perseverance along the whole path. Pilgrim didn't stop going when his burden fell away at the cross. So, we do not stop going after our first confession. Instead we work out our salvation with fear and trembling as we persevere.
One of the great fallacies of the OSAS group is the faction that teaches if you said the sinners prayer you are saved no matter if you keep sinning. If you keep sinning with no repentance, you aren't saved.

I have not read the book but I think I will have to pick one up. If what DaveXR650 has said is what Bunyan wrote in his book then he just sounds biblical. I have never been a fan of labels like Calvinist or Arminian, Labels tend to separate people. I would rather just be called a disciple of Christ Jesus. In other words a learner.

As for OSAS I have never seen how that works form a biblical perspective.

 

[AustinC]

I have not read the book but I think I will have to pick one up. If what DaveXR650 has said is what Bunyan wrote in his book then he just sounds biblical. I have never been a fan of labels like Calvinist or Arminian, Labels tend to separate people. I would rather just be called a disciple of Christ Jesus. In other words a learner.

As for OSAS I have never seen how that works form a biblical perspective.

You...are not a fan of labels? Really? I would never know it from reading your posts.
Here you go. Enjoy. It's one of my favorite books. I have read it multiple times. There are two parts. First the progress of Christian and then, later, the progress of Christian's wife and children. Many tend to read only the first, but the fullness of what Bunyan is teaching via allegory is best understood by reading both.
John Bunyan: Pilgrim's Progress - Christian Classics Ethereal Library

 

[DaveXR650]

I have never been a fan of labels like Calvinist or Arminian, Labels tend to separate people. I would rather just be called a disciple of Christ Jesus. In other words a learner.

As for OSAS I have never seen how that works form a biblical perspective.

Well I agree and what made me want to start this thread is the perception I have that people in the days of the Puritans did not do in practice something we do today - namely we take the theological system and logic that we hold to and then whatever scripture we read or sermon we hear we have as out main goal to bend it if necessary to fit our theology. I have read tons of Puritan writings and they didn't do that. For instance if they come to a passage that says you have to repent and believe they don't immediately begin to modify it to fit a particular soteriology - they would be content to say you have to repent and believe.

In other words you don't find a lot of instances where writers in that day were self conscious of the Calvinistic system they believed. Is it possible we are doing something wrong in the way we apply these systems, or was it just that in the time period of the Puritans the theology wasn't developed fully? Or am I just wrong about this - which is quite possible.

 

[kyredneck]

The writer to the Hebrews warns Christians against drifting

The writer to the Hebrews warns HEBREW Christians against drifting back to the apostate Judaism that murdered Christ, which that generation was very soon to have 'the wrath to come' upon them.

 

[DaveXR650]

The writer to the Hebrews warns HEBREW Christians against drifting back to the apostate Judaism that murdered Christ, which that generation was very soon to have 'the wrath to come' upon them.

Austin C certainly doesn't need me defending him but this is kinda what I'm talking about. A Puritan would read a warning like that in Hebrews to be a warning to him - living in England in 1650. Those warning in Hebrews chapter 6 and 10 used to scare me to death by the way.

 

[kyredneck]

Those warning in Hebrews chapter 6 and 10 used to scare me to death by the way.

30 For we know him that said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God. Heb 10

Audience relevance is of utmost importance when interpreting scripture.

 

[just-want-peace]

----- I have never been a fan of labels like Calvinist or Arminian, Labels tend to separate people. ----

One of the most sensible comments I've read concerning this topic

 

[Silverhair]

You...are not a fan of labels? Really? I would never know it from reading your posts.
Here you go. Enjoy. It's one of my favorite books. I have read it multiple times. There are two parts. First the progress of Christian and then, later, the progress of Christian's wife and children. Many tend to read only the first, but the fullness of what Bunyan is teaching via allegory is best understood by reading both.
John Bunyan: Pilgrim's Progress - Christian Classics Ethereal Library

Thanks for the link. I only use the label as a shorthand. It is more to point out the theological view that you are putting forward. Does the clear the water a bit?

 

[AustinC]

The writer to the Hebrews warns HEBREW Christians against drifting back to the apostate Judaism that murdered Christ, which that generation was very soon to have 'the wrath to come' upon them.

One can hold this view, but we would miss the fact it was written to the covenant people of the promise, which is every person in the church. The writer warns you and me to take heed of what we are being taught lest we drift away. It is a personal warning to you and me as well.

 

[AustinC]

Thanks for the link. I only use the label as a shorthand. It is more to point out the theological view that you are putting forward. Does the clear the water a bit?

Still Mississippi waters my friend. You tend to fall on labels as your crutch to keep you from leaving your post.

 

[Jerome]

Bunyan on labels:

"And since you would know by what name I would be distinguished from others; I tell you, I would be, and hope I am, A CHRISTIAN; and choose, if God should count me worthy, to be called a Christian, a Believer, or other such name which is approved by the Holy Ghost (Acts 11:26). And as for those factious titles of Anabaptists, Independents, Presbyterians, or the like, I conclude, that they came neither from Jerusalem, nor Antioch, but rather from hell and Babylon" — John Bunyan, Peaceable Principles and True

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

You...are not a fan of labels? Really? I would never know it from reading your posts.
Here you go. Enjoy. It's one of my favorite books. I have read it multiple times. There are two parts. First the progress of Christian and then, later, the progress of Christian's wife and children. Many tend to read only the first, but the fullness of what Bunyan is teaching via allegory is best understood by reading both.
John Bunyan: Pilgrim's Progress - Christian Classics Ethereal Library

I’ve never been a fan of allegory but that’s just me. I find them boring and uninteresting and not inspiring in any way. However I did actually try to read it on two occasions… just not my cup of tea I’m afraid.

 

[AustinC]

I’ve never been a fan of allegory but that’s just me. I find them boring and uninteresting and not inspiring in any way. However I did actually try to read it on two occasions… just not my cup of tea I’m afraid.

Read the scripture references. It will give you an understanding of Bunyans theology regarding the work of God in the life of a Christian.

 

[Dave G]

It seems that you could get right up to the end and still not make it.

I agree...it does seem that way, and I know that I've often wondered about my own salvation many times in the past.
The story does appear written from the standpoint of works, but when I look at it and then compare it with what I see in the Bible and how many men and women of true faith lived, the book is very close to my own walk, experience-wise.

In other words, I see that we as believers go through this life and it really is very much a fight to stick with Him at times...
But from His perspective, He does the keeping, despite the bumpy road that we are feeling.

I know he was a Calvinist but he certainly didn't seem to think that it was a done deal that he would persevere.

Similar to the above, for many years neither did I...at least for myself.

I know what God's word teaches, but I have often despaired and reasoned that it didn't apply to me...
Probably because for the first 25 years of my walk with the Lord I made a wreck of things, and therefore shipwrecked my conscience towards the Lord...

But my faith, which the Lord gave me, held... and my confidence and faith were not only restored, but have grown very much.

It seems that he was never self conscious of his eternal security. What do you all think?

Sounds a lot like me, until recently.

 

[Dave G]

Those warning in Hebrews chapter 6 and 10 used to scare me to death by the way.

Me too, until I began to understand them more.

 

[1689Dave]

I understand it a bit differently. It is Christ's blood and imputed righteousness that save us. Our works can amount to nothing more than wood, hay, and stubble and not pass the test. But we are eternally secure in Christ regardless of our works. Our works must be a labor of love before they gain added value in the resurrection.

Had you died in the course of a serious back-slide, your works would fail you, but you are still eternally secure in Christ.

A way to confirm this position is when Paul delivered the incestuous brother to Satan for the destruction of the flesh so his salvation would remain secure.