• Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Reformed Salvation

Status
Not open for further replies.
The Archangel

The Archangel

Well-Known Member
SavedByGrace said:
Now you are taking nonsense

I said that the word regeneration in the Greek means literally BORN AGAIN. are you saying that I am wrong
Click to expand...

No, I'm saying being born again is not something we can do. So if saved means born again, your argument is nullified because we do not regenerate nor save ourselves. (And, I argue regeneration and saved are not synonymous).

The Archangel
 
A

AustinC

Well-Known Member
SavedByGrace said:
Calvinistic teaching on salvation is mainly heretical
Click to expand...
:Rolleyes Funny, you are an island of one and you make this silly assertion. The greatest revivals God has brought to the church have been through Reformed teaching of salvation where God receives all glory and praise. Would you therefore call these movements of God heretical? sbg, you need to have a turn of heart. Do you know what the Bible calls such a turning? If so, that is what I am calling you to do.
 
SavedByGrace

SavedByGrace

Well-Known Member
The Archangel said:
No, I'm saying being born again is not something we can do. So if saved means born again, your argument is nullified because we do not regenerate nor save ourselves. (And, I argue regeneration and saved are not synonymous).

The Archangel
Click to expand...

Sounds like you don't know what you are saying
 
Silverhair

Silverhair

Well-Known Member
AustinC said:
Not rubbish. The way you mishandle Romans 11:32 causes you to be a universalist. Only if you understand Paul's argument regarding Israel can you understand that "everyone" in verse 32 is not universal to all mankind. But, you don't grasp this and thus you argue for universalism while also denying it. You are inconsistent and sloppy in recognizing Paul's argument, which actually starts in chapter 1 of Romans and concludes at the end of chapter 11. It is an amazing argument and explanation of the gospel. were not consigned to disobedience.
Click to expand...


Question for you Austin, just to clarify, are you saying that Rom 11:32 only applies to Israel and does not include the Gentiles?

So is that what you are saying, that God has not consigned all to disobedience just all the Jews. If so that would mean there are some Gentiles that were not consigned to disobedience. So if those Gentiles were not consigned to disobedience/sin why do they need a savior?

The context does say that ALL are consigned, Jews & Gentiles and so that God MAY HAVE, not will have, mercy on all. That is not universalism that is just the gospel message.

You were right on one point about Romans, you really should study the whole book as it will clear up a lot of your misunderstandings of scripture and salvation.
 
Silverhair

Silverhair

Well-Known Member
DaveXR650 said:
Again. Foreknowledge is knowing something will happen in the future. For you and me, it is actually impossible but to the extent it is - it's based on probability. Foreknowledge that God would have is 100% sure because he makes it so or allows it to happen. If he makes it so then he caused it, if he allows it to happen then he at least ordains it - because he could have stopped it if he wanted. It may be flawed, but it is logical and it is what the reformers meant when they said ordained.
Click to expand...

That sounds like a nice escape hatch there, but if God ordains all things that happen even if He just lets those things happen then that makes Him the one responsible. That is why we see free will in the bible. God knows all things that are going to happen but He does not ordain them, thus He is not responsible for mans actions man is. Calvinists insist that God is sovereign but then say hold on here He can't be so sovereign that He can allow man to have an actual free will. And why do they say that, well if man had an actual freewill then that would mean they could actually choose to follow or reject Christ Jesus and the Calvinist just cannot have that as it would ruin their man made theology.
 
Silverhair

Silverhair

Well-Known Member
The Archangel said:
There are many places where Paul argues that we are "slaves to sin." He states that anything that doesn't come from faith is a sin in Romans. It's all over scripture. I guess you bias toward Pelagianism doesn't let you see it.

The Archangel
Click to expand...

And it seems you miss all the times we are told to make choices. But perhaps those texts are not in your special bible version.
 
Y

Yeshua1

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Silverhair said:
Does that include all sin and evil, as that is the way your theology requires it to be. Not biblical just the error of your theology.
Click to expand...
Does anything ever happen outside of God control then, are things done that He did not know of, or could not stop?
 
Silverhair

Silverhair

Well-Known Member
AustinC said:
:Rolleyes Funny, you are an island of one and you make this silly assertion. The greatest revivals God has brought to the church have been through Reformed teaching of salvation where God receives all glory and praise. Would you therefore call these movements of God heretical? sbg, you need to have a turn of heart. Do you know what the Bible calls such a turning? If so, that is what I am calling you to do.
Click to expand...

People are saved through the preaching of the gospel message and we have had some great preachers. It is not that people get saved by Calvinist preachers, they do, it is what they teach people after they are saved. I know this may shock you but people get saved by non-Calvinist also. It is not the preacher it is God that saves.
 
DaveXR650

DaveXR650

Well-Known Member
Silverhair said:
That sounds like a nice escape hatch there, but if God ordains all things that happen even if He just lets those things happen then that makes Him the one responsible.
Click to expand...

Right. That's what they mean by "ordain". That there is a sense in which God is responsible for all things. And in the case you mentioned - if a person chooses not to repent during their time of life, and God knew it even before they were born, and let them be born anyway and grow up and make such a bad choice, then in the reformed sense, God ordained that they would be lost. That does not mean that it's God's fault - they really were free and God did not intervene to save them. They indeed made their own free choices. But it is still true that God in his own wisdom chose not to intervene and thus in that sense is responsible. Now this is the most important point: The only proper response to this is to be thankful to God if you are a believer that he did intervene in your case. Anyone Calvinist or not who thinks that their good sense or intelligence or wisdom had something to do with their being saved is guilty of a great sin.
 
DaveXR650

DaveXR650

Well-Known Member
Silverhair said:
I know this may shock you but people get saved by non-Calvinist also. It is not the preacher it is God that saves.
Click to expand...

Absolutely. And liking Calvinist theology is not necessary to be a Christian and I hope I never put anything on here to suggest any different.
 
Silverhair

Silverhair

Well-Known Member
DaveXR650 said:
Right. That's what they mean by "ordain". That there is a sense in which God is responsible for all things. And in the case you mentioned - if a person chooses not to repent during their time of life, and God knew it even before they were born, and let them be born anyway and grow up and make such a bad choice, then in the reformed sense, God ordained that they would be lost. That does not mean that it's God's fault - they really were free and God did not intervene to save them. They indeed made their own free choices. But it is still true that God in his own wisdom chose not to intervene and thus in that sense is responsible. Now this is the most important point: The only proper response to this is to be thankful to God if you are a believer that he did intervene in your case. Anyone Calvinist or not who thinks that their good sense or intelligence or wisdom had something to do with their being saved is guilty of a great sin.
Click to expand...

I think what you fail to understand is that under Calvinist theology when they say God is sovereign they mean that nothing happens that He does not allow to happen. Now they will say He permits it to happen but that is just an escape hatch for them. As even what He permits is something that He has decreed to happen. So if someone does not come to faith in Christ Jesus under the Calvinist view it is because God has decreed that to be so.

Dave you say "They indeed made their own free choices." but then latter you contradict that when you say "Anyone Calvinist or not who thinks that their good sense or intelligence or wisdom had something to do with their being saved is guilty of a great sin" It takes a free will to make real choices and it takes good sense, intelligence or wisdom in order to do so. God expects us to make real choices and holds us responsible for those choices. That in itself points to a free will.

Try as they might the this is a trap of their own making. The early Church fathers said we had a free will and even Augustine said we had a free will and only changed that when he run to the far end of the logic pool when he fought against Pelagius.

"On Grace and Free Will," (see especially chapters II-IV) St. Augustine states: "He [God] has revealed to us, through His Holy Scriptures, that there is in man a free choice of will," and that "God's precepts themselves would be of no use to a man unless he had free choice of will, so that by performing them he might obtain the promised rewards." (chap. II) Augustine
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top