Understanding The Protestant /Catholic Divide

Pauline Justification is indeed the very heart of the Gospel, and where Rome and we divide!

 

There is NO middle ground on Reformation and Trent, for wither Rome is correct and we should all become Catholics, or else reformation was of God!

 

But this is the very point. Justification implies sanctification and holiness. Where there is no sanctification or holiness (as I pointed out previously by enumerating a few of their well-known sins), there is no justification. This is elementary Christianity requiring no ThD.

Furthermore, your definition of 'hatred' is quite telling. Are Christians not to hate what God hates? The blasphemous sins of the Roman Catholic Church prove obvious hatred for the true God. At least it does for those who have eyes to see.

“If you love me, you will keep my commandments" (John 14:15 ESV).

Ergo, If you hate me you will not keep my commandments.

AustinC, do you consider the Roman Catholic Church a true Christian Church?

I so look forward to your well-reasoned biblical responses.

 

There are saved Catholics in the church of Rome, but saved due to the grace of God, despite their theology, and Rome teaches another gospel!

 

Infant Baptism

Actually, Lutherans, Anglicans, Orthodox, Methodist,, Reformed Christians, etc all POUR water (as seen in the picture) No sprinkling. In fact, the Orthodox immerse the babies.

Presbyterians are more apt to sprinkle.

You love to target Catholics when it come to baptism of infants. But, you forget many (if not most) evangelical denominations follow scripture when it comes to the sacrament:

WESTMINISTER CONFESSION OF FAITH

Chapter XXVIII

"Of Baptism"





I. Baptism is a sacrament of the New Testament, ordained by Jesus Christ,[1] not only for the solemn admission of the party baptized into the visible Church;[2] but also to be unto him a sign and seal of the covenant of grace,[3] of his ingrafting into Christ,[4] of regeneration,[5] of remission of sins,[6] and of his giving up unto God, through Jesus Christ, to walk in the newness of life.[7] Which sacrament is, by Christ's own appointment, to be continued in His Church until the end of the world.[8]

II. The outward element to be used in this sacrament is water, wherewith the party is to be baptized, in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, by a minister of the Gospel, lawfully called thereunto.[9]

III. Dipping of the person into the water is not necessary; but Baptism is rightly administered by pouring, or sprinkling water upon the person.[10]

IV. Not only those that do actually profess faith in and obedience unto Christ,[11] but also the infants of one, or both, believing parents, are to be baptized.[12]

V. Although it is a great sin to contemn or neglect this ordinance,[13] yet grace and salvation are not so inseparably annexed unto it, as that no person can be regenerated, or saved, without it:[14] or, that all that are baptized are undoubtedly regenerated.[15]

VI. The efficacy of Baptism is not tied to that moment of time wherein it is administered;[16] yet, notwithstanding, by the right use of this ordinance, the grace promised is not only offered, but really exhibited, and conferred, by the Holy Ghost, to such (whether of age or infants) as that grace belongs unto, according to the counsel of God's own will, in His appointed time.[17]

VII. The sacrament of Baptism is but once to be administered unto any person.[18]

 

Scripture Proofs
[1] MAT 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost.

[2] 1CO 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

[3] ROM 4:11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also. COL 2:11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: 12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

[4] GAL 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. ROM 6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection.

[5] TIT 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost.

[6] MAR 1:4 John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins.

[7] ROM 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? 4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

[8] MAT 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost.

[9] MAT 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire. JOH 1:33 And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost. MAT 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: 20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

[10] HEB 9:10 Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation. 19 For when Moses had spoken every precept to all the people according to the law, he took the blood of calves and of goats, with water, and scarlet wool, and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book, and all the people, 20 Saying, This is the blood of the testament which God hath enjoined unto you. 21 Moreover he sprinkled with blood both the tabernacle, and all the vessels of the ministry. 22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission. ACT 2:41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls. 16:33 And he took them the same hour of the night, and washed their stripes; and was baptized, he and all his, straightway. MAR 7:4 And when they come from the market, except they wash, they eat not. And many other things there be, which they have received to hold, as the washing of cups, and pots, brasen vessels, and of tables.

[11] MAR 16:15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. 16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. ACT 8:37 And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. 38 And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him.

[12] GEN 17:7 And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee. 9 And God said unto Abraham, Thou shalt keep my covenant therefore, thou, and thy seed after thee in their generations. GAL 3:9 So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham. 14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith. COL 2:11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: 12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead. ACT 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. 39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call. ROM 4:11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also: 12 And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised. 1CO 7:14 For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband: else were your children unclean; but now are they holy. MAT 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. MAR 10:13 And they brought young children to him, that he should touch them: and his disciples rebuked those that brought them. 14 But when Jesus saw it, he was much displeased, and said unto them, Suffer the little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God. 15 Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child, he shall not enter therein. 16 And he took them up in his arms, put his hands upon them, and blessed them. LUK 18:15 And they brought unto him also infants, that he would touch them: but when his disciples saw it, they rebuked them.

[13] LUK 7:30 But the Pharisees and lawyers rejected the counsel of God against themselves, being not baptized of him. EXO 4:24 And it came to pass by the way in the inn, that the Lord met him, and sought to kill him. 25 Then Zipporah took a sharp stone, and cut off the foreskin of her son, and cast it at his feet, and said, Surely a bloody husband art thou to me. 26 So he let him go: then she said, A bloody husband thou art, because of the circumcision.

[14] ROM 4:11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also. ACT 10:2 A devout man, and one that feared God with all his house, which gave much alms to the people, and prayed to God alway. 4 And when he looked on him, he was afraid, and said, What is it, Lord? And he said unto him, Thy prayers and thine alms are come up for a memorial before God. 22 And they said, Cornelius the centurion, a just man, and one that feareth God, and of good report among all the nation of the Jews, was warned from God by an holy angel to send for thee into his house, and to hear words of thee. 31 And said, Cornelius, thy prayer is heard, and thine alms are had in remembrance in the sight of God. 45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost. 47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?

[15] ACT 8:13 Then Simon himself believed also: and when he was baptized, he continued with Philip, and wondered, beholding the miracles and signs which were done. 23 For I perceive that thou art in the gall of bitterness, and in the bond of iniquity.

[16] JOH 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. 8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

[17] GAL 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. TIT 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; EPH 5:25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it; 26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word. ACT 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. 41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.

[18] TIT 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost.

 

I had asked AustinC to answer my two questions with a simple ‘yes’ or ‘no.’

Are Christians not to hate what God hates?

Do you consider the Roman Catholic Church a true Christian Church?

Caught in a perplexing dilemma as were the Pharisees when asked by Jesus the origin of John’s baptism, AustinC refuses to answer:

The baptism of John, was it from heaven, or of men?

5 And they reasoned with themselves, saying, If we shall say, From heaven; he will say, Why then believed ye him not?

6 But and if we say, Of men; all the people will stone us: for they be persuaded that John was a prophet.

7 And they answered, that they could not tell whence it was.

Justification by faith alone apart from works is the subject AustinC wishes to examine in excruciating detail. He cares not what the actual faith/belief system is which the Roman Catholic Church holds.

So I will help AustinC remove the log which prevents him (and others) from arriving at the crux of the matter.

But first I must lay a foundation of biblical principles with proof texts:

(1) Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.
Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;
And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments (Exodus 20).

(2) Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them;
And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me.
Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve (Matthew 4:8-10).

(3) Verily, verily, I say unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord; neither he that is sent greater than he that sent him (John 13:16).

(4) Let them alone; they are blind guides. And if the blind lead the blind, both will fall into a pit (Matthew 15:14).

(5) No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other (Matthew 6:24).

The first Scriptures cited indicate hatred of the true God by those who reverently bow before graven images of any kind. This practice is called ‘idolatry.’

AustinC believes ‘hatred is a game.’ However, our holy sovereign righteous God does not view it a game. Rather, man’s hatred is grounds for God's infinite wrath to damn such God-haters for all eternity.

In the second set of Scriptures we discover it is Satan who commands all men worship Him on bended knee. Jesus cites Scripture which commands men to worship and serve the Lord God only.

The third Scripture verses explain hierarchy and chain of command.

The fourth verses condemn the Pharisees as blind spiritual guides whom the people blindly follow to their destruction. This principle is true of all false prophets and their followers.

The fifth verse declares the impossibility of serving and loving two masters at the same time.

By using the Word of God alone, I will now prove the spiritual authoritative head of the Roman Catholic Church is no Christian, having no Christian faith whatsoever, serving Satan, not the true God of the Bible. For without saving faith it is impossible to please God, let alone be justified.




This religious ceremony is typical of Pope Francis, ‘Vicar’ of Christ, the ‘Holy’ Father. It is not an aberration or an anomaly. Idolatry is foundational to Roman Catholicism. Without it there is no ‘true’ worship in their religion. In this photo we see the alleged ‘Head of the Christian Church on Earth’ mumbling sweet nothings into the graven ear of a graven female goddess, whom he delights in serving day and night.

CONCLUSIONS BASED ON SCRIPTURE ALONE:

1. The Pope cannot serve both the true God and idols.

2. The Pope is an idolator.

3. Therefore, he hates the true God, as does Satan.

4. It is Satan, not God, not the true mother of Jesus, who demands worship through graven images.

5. Therefore, the Pope’s faith is satanic, not Christian. True Christians love the Lord God and prove it by refusing to serve false gods.

6. The Pope of Rome is the blind guide of the blind.

7. Unless a Catholic leaves and repudiates the Roman Church and her head, the Pope, that person will likewise fall into the bottomless pit.

8. It is impossible practicing Catholics have a better or greater faith than their master, the Pope, because the Catholic lay person is not greater than his master, the Pope of Rome.

10. Thus the Holy Spirit admonishes they, ‘Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues’ (Rev. 18:4).

FINAL CONCLUSION:

There are no biblical grounds to enter into theological debates with the Catholic Church and her adherents in the first place because it is obvious to those with eyes to see, she is not of the Lord God, but of Satan, the god of this world. Thus, it is impossible she has been justified in the first place. Debating justification with such obvious anti-Christians is an absurd waste of valuable time, energy and resources when the answer is before your very eyes.

Answer not a fool according to his folly, lest thou also be like unto him (Proverbs 26:4).

 

Protestant: "Are Christians not to hate what God hates?

For we ourselves were once foolish,...hating one another (Titus 3:3)."
"Whoever hates a brother is in darkness (John 2:11)."
"Whoever says, "I love God and hate my brother is a liar (1 John 4:20)."

Protestant: "Do you consider the Roman Catholic Church a true Christian Church?"

Yes, because Catholic doctrine on justification is more biblically sound than your hate-filled fundamentalist spirituality.
I will demonstrate this in my next post.

 

"No one can enter the kingdom of God without being born of water [baptism, not amniotic fluid] and the Spirit (John 3:5)."
Peter clearly understands "water and the Spirit as referencing water baptism:
Peter: "Repent and be baptized everyone of you in the name of Jesus Christ, that your sins may be forgiven (Acts 2:38)."
So Catholics stress repentance, the new birth, and baptism as 3 aspects of the salvation process. But baptism is only part of that redemptive process if one repents and is born again. Thus, Catholics embrace Peter's clarification:
"Baptism...now saves you ...as a pledge to God of a good conscience (1 Peter 3:21)."
Evangelicals are uncomfortable with Jesus' and Peter's phrasing, but evangelicals and Catholics understand baptism basically the same way, except that Catholics practice infant baptism, citing:
Acts 16:16 and 16:33, where "household" can include small children. But even then, Catholics require faith Confirmation at the age of accountability to ensure that meaning of this sacramental act is understood and embraced.

 

Is it the Imparted justification granted to lost sinners, receive thru faith alone, or is it infused grace, that comes thru the Sacraments?

 

Catholics call Protestants out for failing to stress the process of justification and salvation in Scripture.

JESUS AND PETER:
The quality our your speech throughout your life will determined whether you are ultimately "justified" or "condemned (Matthew 12:37)." For Peter. "the salvation of your souls" is "the outcome of your faith (1 Peter 1:9)" only if your faith is sustained.
As born again believers ("newborn babes"), you must 'grow into salvation," not assume it is an accomplished irreversible fact.

PAUL:
Catholics agree with Eph. 2:7-8 that salvation is achieved only through grace and that "works'' can't merit salvation. So they recognize "works" as a necessary but not a sufficient condition for salvation. Thus, in its process, you must "work out your salvation" throughout your life and never take it for granted. The uncertainty of the final outcome requires you to "work out your own salvation with fear and trembling (Phil. 2:12)," because of the possibility that you might ultimately forfeit your salvation by the way you live. Even Paul must entertain the possibility that he might ultimately lose his salvation, if he is not careful: "I punish my body and enslave it, lest having preached to others, I myself might become reprobate (Greek: adokimos)." For Paul "adokimos" means becoming unsaved (Rom. 1:28). How seriously Paul takes the process of salvation is illustrated by 2 Cor. 4:16 (cp. 5:17): "our inner nature" is not simply transformed the moment we become a "new creation." Rather, it must be "made new day by day."

EPISTLE OF JAMES:
Informed Catholics recognize a truth ignored by most Protestants: In both Hebrew *"amunah" and Greek ("pistis"), the word translated "faith" also means "faithfulness." "Faith without works" cannot save you (2:14). Rather, faith must be demonstrated by a lifestyle of works (2:18). The redemptive uncertainty of the justification process necessitates a regular practice that Protestants generally ignore: "Confess your sins to one another,...so that you may be healed" (spiritually and physically--5:16).
Catholics practice regular confession to a priest to ensure confidentiality and to ensure a spiritually mature listener. Most Protestants use their belief in a once-for--justification as an excuse to trivialize the need for regular confession of sin. Their usually vague and general confessions are sporadic and are directed at God and not to other Christians as Scripture requires. Catholics think Protestants are well advised to heed Socrates' advice," An unexamined life is not worth living."