Is repentance an aspect of faith, or is repentance a good work?

[DaveXR650]

Indeed. There is an unfortunate strain of Hyper-Calvinism among some people on this board which is serving to obscure the case for true Biblical Calvinism.

Right Martin. I wish everyone on this thread would take a couple of days and listen to the whole series Sinclair Ferguson does on those issues. I'm glad that SBG is listening to these guys because he at least might realize that there is a human face on Calvinism. The hyper Calvinists on here should step back and think about the way they are representing God. But SBG should also be humble enough to realize that Sinclair Ferguson, if you listen to the whole video on repentance refers to the WCF and quotes it and says that it is a gift from God. In another video of that series he talks about Bunyan and I think Perkins, who made a chart showing the order of salvation and guess what - regeneration is first. Theologically, the guys are right. What I love about the Puritans is that they seemed to be interested first and foremost in ministering to people using means that are suitable to our human frame.

 

[37818]

Why is the term translated "repent" or "repentance" by the Holy Spirit not given to be used in John's gospel account, ". . . But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. . . ." -- John 20:31? And the verb to believe is used more in this book than any other book of the New Testament?

 

[Silverhair]

Ah! I have the book. It is in the 'Puritan Paperback' selection from Banner of Truth.
I must confess that it is a long time since I read it; you have encouraged me to do so again.

But read what Watson says at the very start of your link, which is actually the beginning of Chapter 3.

'I shall next show what gospel repentance is. Repentance is a grace of God's Spirit, whereby a sinner is inwardly humbled and outwardly reformed.'

Repentance is a grace of the Holy Spirit, and by it, sinners do not inwardly humble and outwardly reform themselves; they are humbled and reformed. The verbs are Passive. That is not to say that there is nothing for a man to do. 'Let go and let God' is a wretched doctrine. No, we do these things, but it is the Holy Spirit who impels us to do so, and therefore Watson rightly ascribes the work to Him. What does Paul say? '.....Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you to will and to do of His good pleasure' (Philippians 2:12-13).

I think it is @Silverhair rather than you who is obsessed with robotics. It's not that at all. We have to believe and repent, but when we do so, it is God, by the Spirit, who has opened our heart to believe and moved us, gently but irresistibly, to repent.


BTW, in Post #27 you rather brusquely criticized @AustinC for suggesting that there might be such a thing as fake repentance. I take it that you have read Watson's book? Chapter 2 is entitled 'Counterfeit Repentance.'

Martin it is not robotics that I am, in your words obsessed with. Read your own words >>it is God, by the Spirit, who has opened our heart to believe and moved us, gently but irresistibly, to repent.<<

If you are moved, as you say irresistibly then that means you have no choice, have not ability to do otherwise. So sounds like you are just being controlled just like a robot, thought you would like me calling you that. But since the shoe fits you should wear it.

But what you fail to acknowledge, but what your words do show, is that if a person is not moved irresistibly, your words, then they cannot come to Christ Jesus so would be condemned. Which means that all those that are condemned are so because God did not move them. Therefore they are condemned not by their sin but because God did not move them to turn and repent of their sin. Remember your the ones that keep saying that God has to irresistibly do everything.

 

[AustinC]

Right Martin. I wish everyone on this thread would take a couple of days and listen to the whole series Sinclair Ferguson does on those issues. I'm glad that SBG is listening to these guys because he at least might realize that there is a human face on Calvinism. The hyper Calvinists on here should step back and think about the way they are representing God. But SBG should also be humble enough to realize that Sinclair Ferguson, if you listen to the whole video on repentance refers to the WCF and quotes it and says that it is a gift from God. In another video of that series he talks about Bunyan and I think Perkins, who made a chart showing the order of salvation and guess what - regeneration is first. Theologically, the guys are right. What I love about the Puritans is that they seemed to be interested first and foremost in ministering to people using means that are suitable to our human frame.

Indeed, the Puritans are pastoral, meaning their focus is on the spiritual care of the congregation. If one is not listening closely it may sound like they are teaching something different. Also, Puritan is a broad category, meaning that within the Puritans there will be varying thoughts. Some may lean closer to Arminian thoughts than others.
Ultimately, however, the Supremacy of God in salvation trumps human will.

 

[AustinC]

Martin it is not robotics that I am, in your words obsessed with. Read your own words >>it is God, by the Spirit, who has opened our heart to believe and moved us, gently but irresistibly, to repent.<<

If you are moved, as you say irresistibly then that means you have no choice, have not ability to do otherwise. So sounds like you are just being controlled just like a robot, thought you would like me calling you that. But since the shoe fits you should wear it.

But what you fail to acknowledge, but what your words do show, is that if a person is not moved irresistibly, your words, then they cannot come to Christ Jesus so would be condemned. Which means that all those that are condemned are so because God did not move them. Therefore they are condemned not by their sin but because God did not move them to turn and repent of their sin. Remember your the ones that keep saying that God has to irresistibly do everything.

It seems, silverhair, that you struggle with the idea of irresistible grace, which does not mean that humans won't fight God for control over their lives. It means that no matter how humans struggle against God's drawing, they cannot break free of what God is Sovereignly accomplishing. That draw cannot be broken. As an imperfect analogy, think of Star Wars, A New Hope, where the Millenium Falcon is caught in the Death Stars tractor beam. No matter how they tried, they could not break the tractor beam. They were irresistibly drawn (dragged) into the Death Star.
In fact, the unregenerate person may imagine God as an evil force when first drawn toward God, but ultimately they cannot escape the will of God, which is their full reconciliation with Christ. They cannot break free regardless of their level of initial cooperation or not.

If one could choose to not cooperate to the point of repelling God, then that would make God inferior to humanity. Even we who have been reconciled could, in your scenario, be capable of breaking free and reigning supreme over God. Such a view is not taught by any author in the Bible.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

lets be clear on this. NO sinner can in and of themselves ever seek the Lord and repent, as they cannot do this. It is clear that they must hear the Gospel preached, as Paul says in Romans 10, and the events in Acts 2, and then the Holy Spirit CONVICTS them through this Message, as Jesus says in John 16:8-10; and Acts 2:37, when they were CUT TO THE HEART.

Up to this point we are in agreement.

We also read in Acts 7, that this "convicting" by the Holy Spirit can be "resisted" (verse 51), not like the Reformed state, that God's grace cannot be resisted. If, like those in Acts 2 respond by wanting to be saved, then they must REPENT of their sins, as Peter clearly tells them in verse 38, etc.

The 'cut to the heart' of Acts 7:54 is very different to that of 2:37 (different Greek verb).
It is very clear that there is a work of the Spirit that may, indeed will, always be resisted. Felix 'was afraid' (Acts of the Apostles 24:25); Agrippa is 'almost persuade[d] ... to become a Christian' (Acts of the Apostles 26:28); the 'stony ground' hearer 'receives [the word] with joy' but later falls away; the 'thorny ground' hearer 'becomes unfruitful' (Matthew 13:20-22); there are those who have 'tasted the heavenly gift' and yet fallen away (Hebrews 6:4-6). I think it is true to say that men will always resist the Holy Spirit unless He comes in irresistible power.

Yet there is a work of the Spirit which cannot be resisted. When our Lord called Levi with just two words, 'he left all, rose up and followed Him' (Luke 5:27-28). Saul of Tarsus resisted the Spirit for the longest time; that is why the Lord said, 'It is hard for you to kick against the goads' (Acts of the Apostles 26:14). It seems that he had fought against a growing conviction until, finally, God said, "Enough!" The light shone from heaven and he grovelled in the dust.

Jonah and Jeremiah resisted the Lord's call for a while, but God brought them into line (Jonah 1:1-3; Jeremiah 20:9). God's sovereign will can never be frustrated by man.

 

[DaveXR650]

Ultimately, however, the Supremacy of God in salvation trumps human will.

I think that the choice of words above makes it seem like there is a point in salvation where you are forced to do what you don't want to do. I know you don't actually mean that but that's how it comes out. The WCF ch. 9 and ch 10 go into this and I think for good reason they frame it more as your will being freed, or having your will renewed so that you come freely. Now because of this I don't have a problem with someone saying " I realized I was a sinner so I came to Christ". That's what happens when the Holy Spirit is at work. But if you insist that it was of your own free will and what you mean by that is in your natural state you evaluated God's offer of the Gospel and decided to accept it totally on your own - well, then there may be bigger problems. And the reason for that is that we may be wrong on lots of theology and God still saves - but I don't see where you can come "by faith" and not come empty handed. God will not save someone who comes with the attitude that they have carefully evaluated God's plan and have decided to award him with acceptance. And there again, it's not fair to say that everyone who isn't monergistic is doing this either.

 

[AustinC]

I think that the choice of words above makes it seem like there is a point in salvation where you are forced to do what you don't want to do. I know you don't actually mean that but that's how it comes out. The WCF ch. 9 and ch 10 go into this and I think for good reason they frame it more as your will being freed, or having your will renewed so that you come freely. Now because of this I don't have a problem with someone saying " I realized I was a sinner so I came to Christ". That's what happens when the Holy Spirit is at work. But if you insist that it was of your own free will and what you mean by that is in your natural state you evaluated God's offer of the Gospel and decided to accept it totally on your own - well, then there may be bigger problems. And the reason for that is that we may be wrong on lots of theology and God still saves - but I don't see where you can come "by faith" and not come empty handed. God will not save someone who comes with the attitude that they have carefully evaluated God's plan and have decided to award him with acceptance. And there again, it's not fair to say that everyone who isn't monergistic is doing this either.

The only thing I cringe at is that technically God does force our repentance and change our will. It is the reaction that we all have when God reveals his holiness and glory to us. We respond like Isaiah and proclaim "Woa is me for I am a man of unclean lips." Had God never revealed Himself, we would never have had a change of mind. Therefore the idea of forced change of mind is not inaccurate. God changes us radically and He doesn't ask for our permission.

 

[atpollard]

If you are moved, as you say irresistibly then that means you have no choice, have not ability to do otherwise. So sounds like you are just being controlled just like a robot, thought you would like me calling you that. But since the shoe fits you should wear it.

Funny how nobody chooses to fall in love and yet I have never heard of anyone describe falling in love as "being controlled just like a robot".

We should do something to stamp out this nefarious "love of God" that is stealing people from their state of blissful ignorance of His love and their right to feel unloved without any interference from God "drawing" them to His loving Son ...

 

[Silverhair]

It seems, silverhair, that you struggle with the idea of irresistible grace, which does not mean that humans won't fight God for control over their lives. It means that no matter how humans struggle against God's drawing, they cannot break free of what God is Sovereignly accomplishing. That draw cannot be broken. As an imperfect analogy, think of Star Wars, A New Hope, where the Millenium Falcon is caught in the Death Stars tractor beam. No matter how they tried, they could not break the tractor beam. They were irresistibly drawn (dragged) into the Death Star.
In fact, the unregenerate person may imagine God as an evil force when first drawn toward God, but ultimately they cannot escape the will of God, which is their full reconciliation with Christ. They cannot break free regardless of their level of initial cooperation or not.

If one could choose to not cooperate to the point of repelling God, then that would make God inferior to humanity. Even we who have been reconciled could, in your scenario, be capable of breaking free and reigning supreme over God. Such a view is not taught by any author in the Bible.

That is only a true comment when we look at everything through your lens. Austin you require God to be the one that "drags" people to Him by an irresistible force. So what you show is that either all are dragged to God or He only picks certain ones to drag and all others are left to go to hell. Those that go to hell go not because of their sin but ultimately because God did not drag them into heaven. Remember for you God has to irresistibly cause them to turn & repent as they can not do this on their own.



Now as I understand it God makes a true offer of salvation to all people. Joh 3:16 And He has done this because He desires that all be saved. 1Ti 2:3-4 But even though God desires that all be saved He will not force/drag them to Himself, they have to turn and trust in Christ Jesus on their own. Rom 10:13



Now you may ask why would man turn to God? Well the bible has an answer for that question. God has given us creation Rom 1:18-21 so we really have on excuse for not knowing about God, but God did not just leave us there did He? Even though we have creation God has, via the Holy Spirit, come to convict us of our sin Joh 16:8-11 and to lead us toward God via the law written on our hearts and by pricking our conscience. Rom 2:14-15 And beyond that we also have the gospel message. Rom 1:16 God is gracious and merciful and truly offers salvation to all men Rom 2:4



Now you may be thinking, but don't you know that God is sovereign? Well yes I do know that God is sovereign. The difference is that for you God has to control everything or else He is not sovereign. So for you man cannot have a free will as that would lessen the sovereignty of God. What you fail to see is that by your understanding you are lessening the sovereignty of God. What mystifies me is how you would think that God allowing man to do what God has allowed man to do would in any way lessen His sovereignty.



I believe God is sovereign over all things and that includes His sovereignty. God can do as He wishes. That includes allowing man to have a free will so that if a man chooses to turn and repent or if that man chooses to reject Christ Jesus he is the agent of his choices and therefore is responsible for those choices.

 

[Silverhair]

Funny how nobody chooses to fall in love and yet I have never heard of anyone describe falling in love as "being controlled just like a robot".

We should do something to stamp out this nefarious "love of God" that is stealing people from their state of blissful ignorance of His love and their right to feel unloved without any interference from God "drawing" them to His loving Son ...

You left out the word "irresistibly". Funny how some many on here that hold to a certain view have the habit of skipping over words they do not like.
If someone is "irresistibly" made to do love someone would that really be love? Your doctrinal view must make you uncomfortable as you seem to do a lot to avoid your own doctrines.

 

[canadyjd]

You left out the word "irresistibly". Funny how some many on here that hold to a certain view have the habit of skipping over words they do not like.
If someone is "irresistibly" made to do love someone would that really be love? Your doctrinal view must make you uncomfortable as you seem to do a lot to avoid your own doctrines.

Effectual calling (some say irresistible grace) refers to God’s ability to so move in a person’s life in convincing them of their sin, need for a Savior and the truth concerning Jesus that they will respond 100% of the time with saving faith.

BTW, Jesus commanded us to love one another (hard enough) but to also love our enemies. Can a command to love produce genuine love without God (Who is Love incarnate) being the source of that love?

Peace to you

 

[Martin Marprelate]

I think that the choice of words above makes it seem like there is a point in salvation where you are forced to do what you don't want to do.

I think this is mostly a problem with words.
It often appears that unsaved people freely reject Christ and freely sin. Yet the Bible says that they are slaves of sin and slaves of Satan (John 8:34; Mark 3:27; Romans 6:16-18; 2 Corinthians 4:4 etc.). But if you tell people that, they deny it angrily.
In the same way, when God gives new birth to someone, he obeys freely (Psalms 110:3; Psalms 40:8) because Christ has freed him from sin (John 8:36), But the Bible also says that he is now a slave of God (Romans 6:22).

I think maybe comparing Exodus 21:5-7 with Psalms 40:6-8 helps to understand the conundrum. We are slaves of Christ, but willing slaves because He has set us free to serve Him.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Martin it is not robotics that I am, in your words obsessed with. Read your own words >>it is God, by the Spirit, who has opened our heart to believe and moved us, gently but irresistibly, to repent.<<

If you are moved, as you say irresistibly then that means you have no choice, have not ability to do otherwise. So sounds like you are just being controlled just like a robot, thought you would like me calling you that. But since the shoe fits you should wear it.

But what you fail to acknowledge, but what your words do show, is that if a person is not moved irresistibly, your words, then they cannot come to Christ Jesus so would be condemned. Which means that all those that are condemned are so because God did not move them. Therefore they are condemned not by their sin but because God did not move them to turn and repent of their sin. Remember your the ones that keep saying that God has to irresistibly do everything.

Maybe have a look at my post #73 above and it will help you understand. I have no doubt at all that God drew me irresistibly to Him, but I don't feel like a slave. He has made me free to serve Him. Praise His name!

 

[AustinC]

That is only a true comment when we look at everything through your lens. Austin you require God to be the one that "drags" people to Him by an irresistible force. So what you show is that either all are dragged to God or He only picks certain ones to drag and all others are left to go to hell. Those that go to hell go not because of their sin but ultimately because God did not drag them into heaven. Remember for you God has to irresistibly cause them to turn & repent as they can not do this on their own.



Now as I understand it God makes a true offer of salvation to all people. Joh 3:16 And He has done this because He desires that all be saved. 1Ti 2:3-4 But even though God desires that all be saved He will not force/drag them to Himself, they have to turn and trust in Christ Jesus on their own. Rom 10:13



Now you may ask why would man turn to God? Well the bible has an answer for that question. God has given us creation Rom 1:18-21 so we really have on excuse for not knowing about God, but God did not just leave us there did He? Even though we have creation God has, via the Holy Spirit, come to convict us of our sin Joh 16:8-11 and to lead us toward God via the law written on our hearts and by pricking our conscience. Rom 2:14-15 And beyond that we also have the gospel message. Rom 1:16 God is gracious and merciful and truly offers salvation to all men Rom 2:4



Now you may be thinking, but don't you know that God is sovereign? Well yes I do know that God is sovereign. The difference is that for you God has to control everything or else He is not sovereign. So for you man cannot have a free will as that would lessen the sovereignty of God. What you fail to see is that by your understanding you are lessening the sovereignty of God. What mystifies me is how you would think that God allowing man to do what God has allowed man to do would in any way lessen His sovereignty.



I believe God is sovereign over all things and that includes His sovereignty. God can do as He wishes. That includes allowing man to have a free will so that if a man chooses to turn and repent or if that man chooses to reject Christ Jesus he is the agent of his choices and therefore is responsible for those choices.

God requires it, Silverhair. You have to deal with God speaking, not me.

John 6:43-45
But Jesus replied, “Stop complaining about what I said. For no one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them to me, and at the last day I will raise them up. As it is written in the Scriptures, ‘They will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who listens to the Father and learns from him comes to me.

 

[atpollard]

You left out the word "irresistibly". Funny how some many on here that hold to a certain view have the habit of skipping over words they do not like.
If someone is "irresistibly" made to do love someone would that really be love? Your doctrinal view must make you uncomfortable as you seem to do a lot to avoid your own doctrines.

Can you resist falling in love?

You can resist acting on the emotional draw, but the emotional draw just happens without asking your permission. So too, God can irresistibly draw (who can resist the will of God?). Those God draws to the Son WILL and DO go to the Son.

Personally, I have never met anyone that complained about the LOVE of God (either loving God or being loved by God), but you are welcome to call His love unfair and manipulative if it pleases you to do so. I just felt gratitude.

 

[Silverhair]

I think this is mostly a problem with words.
It often appears that unsaved people freely reject Christ and freely sin. Yet the Bible says that they are slaves of sin and slaves of Satan (John 8:34; Mark 3:27; Romans 6:16-18; 2 Corinthians 4:4 etc.). But if you tell people that, they deny it angrily.
In the same way, when God gives new birth to someone, he obeys freely (Psalms 110:3; Psalms 40:8) because Christ has freed him from sin (John 8:36), But the Bible also says that he is now a slave of God (Romans 6:22).

I think maybe comparing Exodus 21:5-7 with Psalms 40:6-8 helps to understand the conundrum. We are slaves of Christ, but willing slaves because He has set us free to serve Him.

Martin you do realize that the verses you used in your post could be used for someone that has heard the gospel message and then through his God given free will has repented and turned to Christ Jesus in faith..

You seem to think that man cannot trust in God unless God zaps them with faith after they are saved.. Do I have to show you again the verse that point to man trusting in God because of his exercising his God given free will? And furthermore as a result of said faith the man is save by God.

I always find it amazing that those of the determinist view will say man has the free will to sin but has no such ability to trust in God. Since under your view God decrees all things that must include having or not having the ability to exercise a real free will. So if you continue to hold to the no real free will for man then that would only leave us with God has made the choice for all those that end up in hell.

Now since I do not hold to a view that would have God picking those that go to hell, as you seem to, then I have to trust what the bible shows which is that man indeed has a real free will and is thus held responsible for the choices he makes.

 

[atpollard]

Your doctrinal view must make you uncomfortable as you seem to do a lot to avoid your own doctrines.

Actually, I spent a very long time attempting to reconcile the ‘Wesleyan Holiness’ teaching I was learning as an adult at the Church of God (Anderson, Indiana) with the empirical reality of my ‘road to Damascus’ salvation from a drug smuggler and an arsonist to someone to whom ‘God made an offer I couldn’t refuse’.


So I stumbled on TRUTH in scripture and later found out that it had a name … Calvinism. It turned out that I am a Particular Baptist because I believe that God does the saving (we do not choose God until after God chooses us) and that baptism is for the saved, not for babies entering a covenant. Scripture supports my personal salvation experience and the Doctrines of Grace do a good job of articulating that observed reality.

So I am comfortable with all doctrines. I just cannot say “Amen” to the ‘we choose God and then God chooses us’ doctrines because I did not choose God first. I can still admire the writing of John Wesley; I just disagree with his reading of scripture.

 

[Silverhair]

Can you resist falling in love?

You can resist acting on the emotional draw, but the emotional draw just happens without asking your permission. So too, God can irresistibly draw (who can resist the will of God?). Those God draws to the Son WILL and DO go to the Son.

Personally, I have never met anyone that complained about the LOVE of God (either loving God or being loved by God), but you are welcome to call His love unfair and manipulative if it pleases you to do so. I just felt gratitude.

What you seem to be ignoring in your comment is the other side of the equation. If you hold to the "irresistibly" of God dragging someone to Himself but you conveniently avoid the other side. All those that are not "irresistibly" dragged are by default "irresistibly" condemned. That is the unavoidable outcome of your view.

I notice that you say that you just felt gratitude. What I also notice is that you seem to lack compassion for those that do not fit into your "irresistibly" dragged group.

 

[atpollard]

That is the unavoidable outcome of your view.

That is one of two possible outcomes.

Romans 9 makes it clear that GOD most certainly has the RIGHT to create both “vessels of wrath” and “vessels of mercy”. Therefore, it would not be WRONG of GOD to PREDESTINE with equal action some to Heaven and others to hell. God is the Potter and how He uses His clay is His right.

However, that sort of double-predestination also assumes that the clay is neutral. Scripture teaches us that EVERYONE sins and EVERYONE is a child of the devil and slave to sin and enemy to God (Romans 3 and Ephesians 2). Therefore EVERYONE deserves wrath and those that get wrath have only gotten what they deserve. The miracle is that God chooses to save anyone.

The fact that a governor may pardon one prisoner does not make it unjust that the governor did not pardon all prisoners. God employs “irresistible grace” because any “resistible grace” would be resisted by fallen men and everyone would end up in hell.

"This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil. For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed.” [John 3:19-20 NASB95]

• All men naturally love darkness
• All men do evil
• Therefore, all men hate the Light
• No man will come to the Light

THEREFORE:

Jesus answered and said to them, "Do not grumble among yourselves. No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day. It is written in the prophets, 'AND THEY SHALL ALL BE TAUGHT OF GOD.' Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father, comes to Me.” [John 6:43-45 NASB95]

• God had to take matters into His own hands.