Is repentance an aspect of faith, or is repentance a good work?

[Yeshua1]

You know. It seems like "free will" is the big issue really. If all you mean by free will is that you do what you want to do at the time the choice came up then yes you have free will. But if you believe by free will that God at some point gave everyone an equal thing called "free will" and so everyone is now equipped equally and from that - you and only you must decide to come to Christ or not with no further influence allowed to be put on you even by God himself - well then that just ain't right. I'd read Spurgeon's defense of Calvinism, I think it was written in 1897 and he himself explains this. I'm afraid sometimes that the Puritan writings sound confusing to us because we think like modern men and they lived in a world where you didn't leave a job, church was mandatory, sticking close to your church doctrine was a matter of survival - free will as we think of it was unknown to them. Spurgeon came much later ( he was still preaching when my grandma was born), and his thought patterns seem more familiar.

If one really think on free will, would not the only One with real and absolute free will be God?

 

[AustinC]

Reading the thread title,
Is repentance an aspect of faith, or is repentance a good work?, I would hope that we all agree that repentance is an aspect of faith.

Where this all seems to breakdown is whether faith is something an independent human generates on their own or whether faith is something God gives, independent of human will.

 

[JonC]

Indeed. There is an unfortunate strain of Hyper-Calvinism among some people on this board which is serving to obscure the case for true Biblical Calvinism.

I think it a given "hypers" do not see themselves as such. How do you define "hyper-Calvinism"?

 

[DaveXR650]

Hyper Calvinists on here are ones that believe that they were justified from eternity or at least from the time of Christ's death. They believe that getting saved is actually just realizing that you have been justified.
And this is the hard one: they believe that the "offer" of the gospel is not real to those who are not elect.

 

[Silverhair]

I agree the drum beat of "free will" is false and has never been proven in scripture. In fact the Bible is clear that humans have no capacity to be free. They are either slaves to sin (Satan) or slaves to Christ Jesus. But, humans are never free. Thus, never is our will free to do whatever we please. Reading Romans and Galatians will help clear up the false notion of free will.

Free will is only false for those that ignore scripture. Funny but when I point out how CHS supports free will everyone ignores that and says ya but you missed his last point. I did not miss it because I was not posting in regard to it. I was pointing out that even Calvinists have to admit man has a free will but then has to back peddle so they sound like Calvinists. Calvinists are adept at ignoring the contradictions in their theology. Whenever someone points out the errors they just respond, well you just do not understand Calvinism.

When we look at the foundation of Calvinism we find that modern Calvinists interpretation of Scripture comes from Calvin, which comes from Augustine, which ultimately came from the Manichaeans who were Gnostics. Take the time to look into the bases of your theology, you may be surprised at what you find.

As Calvinists you require God to make all the decisions for you so you treat all others as if God did not give them the intelligence to read the bible and to learn from it or to be led by the promptings of the Holy Spirit. So I ask you is that how the God of the bible deals with His creation, does He control every choice you make or does He expect man to make real future affecting choices.

The reality is that even though you think God determined that you would be saved and then gave you the faith to believe after you were saved, you will be held responsible for what you see as His choice. The reality is that as a determinist you can never be sure of your salvation because you may have just been determined to think that way. Perhaps at some future date you will wake up and find that it was all just an illusion.

I think that Calvin said it well so I will quote him from his Institutes Bk 3 Chp 2 sec a /11
In the elect alone he implants the living root of faith, so that they persevere even to the end. Thus we dispose of the objection, that if God truly displays his grace, it must endure for ever. There is nothing inconsistent in this with the fact of his enlightening some with a present sense of grace, which afterwards proves evanescent.

You just have to hope you really are part of the elect as you can really never know until you pass from this mortal coil. And then it is to late to affect your future.

 

[AustinC]

Free will is only false for those that ignore scripture. Funny but when I point out how CHS supports free will everyone ignores that and says ya but you missed his last point. I did not miss it because I was not posting in regard to it. I was pointing out that even Calvinists have to admit man has a free will but then has to back peddle so they sound like Calvinists. Calvinists are adept at ignoring the contradictions in their theology. Whenever someone points out the errors they just respond, well you just do not understand Calvinism.

When we look at the foundation of Calvinism we find that modern Calvinists interpretation of Scripture comes from Calvin, which comes from Augustine, which ultimately came from the Manichaeans who were Gnostics. Take the time to look into the bases of your theology, you may be surprised at what you find.

As Calvinists you require God to make all the decisions for you so you treat all others as if God did not give them the intelligence to read the bible and to learn from it or to be led by the promptings of the Holy Spirit. So I ask you is that how the God of the bible deals with His creation, does He control every choice you make or does He expect man to make real future affecting choices.

The reality is that even though you think God determined that you would be saved and then gave you the faith to believe after you were saved, you will be held responsible for what you see as His choice. The reality is that as a determinist you can never be sure of your salvation because you may have just been determined to think that way. Perhaps at some future date you will wake up and find that it was all just an illusion.

I think that Calvin said it well so I will quote him from his Institutes Bk 3 Chp 2 sec a /11
In the elect alone he implants the living root of faith, so that they persevere even to the end. Thus we dispose of the objection, that if God truly displays his grace, it must endure for ever. There is nothing inconsistent in this with the fact of his enlightening some with a present sense of grace, which afterwards proves evanescent.

You just have to hope you really are part of the elect as you can really never know until you pass from this mortal coil. And then it is to late to affect your future.

Yet another post with zero support from the Bible and no acknowledgement that humans are either slaves to sin or slaves to Christ. Freedom is entirely in your imagination.

 

[Silverhair]

Yet another post with zero support from the Bible and no acknowledgement that humans are either slaves to sin or slaves to Christ. Freedom is entirely in your imagination.

You do have a very strong ability to ignore what ever you do not like don't you. But you are right about one thing Calvin has no real bible support but you still hold to him don't you.

 

[Yeshua1]

Yet another post with zero support from the Bible and no acknowledgement that humans are either slaves to sin or slaves to Christ. Freedom is entirely in your imagination.

You will be enslaved by either your own sin nature, ir by the Holy Spirit indwelling you now!

 

[Yeshua1]

You do have a very strong ability to ignore what ever you do not like don't you. But you are right about one thing Calvin has no real bible support but you still hold to him don't you.

Not Calvin, as we hold to what Jesus and Apostles stated regarding this!

 

[Yeshua1]

I think it a given "hypers" do not see themselves as such. How do you define "hyper-Calvinism"?

One holding to eternal justification , as one is born into that state already!

 

[Yeshua1]

Free will is only false for those that ignore scripture. Funny but when I point out how CHS supports free will everyone ignores that and says ya but you missed his last point. I did not miss it because I was not posting in regard to it. I was pointing out that even Calvinists have to admit man has a free will but then has to back peddle so they sound like Calvinists. Calvinists are adept at ignoring the contradictions in their theology. Whenever someone points out the errors they just respond, well you just do not understand Calvinism.

When we look at the foundation of Calvinism we find that modern Calvinists interpretation of Scripture comes from Calvin, which comes from Augustine, which ultimately came from the Manichaeans who were Gnostics. Take the time to look into the bases of your theology, you may be surprised at what you find.

As Calvinists you require God to make all the decisions for you so you treat all others as if God did not give them the intelligence to read the bible and to learn from it or to be led by the promptings of the Holy Spirit. So I ask you is that how the God of the bible deals with His creation, does He control every choice you make or does He expect man to make real future affecting choices.

The reality is that even though you think God determined that you would be saved and then gave you the faith to believe after you were saved, you will be held responsible for what you see as His choice. The reality is that as a determinist you can never be sure of your salvation because you may have just been determined to think that way. Perhaps at some future date you will wake up and find that it was all just an illusion.

I think that Calvin said it well so I will quote him from his Institutes Bk 3 Chp 2 sec a /11
In the elect alone he implants the living root of faith, so that they persevere even to the end. Thus we dispose of the objection, that if God truly displays his grace, it must endure for ever. There is nothing inconsistent in this with the fact of his enlightening some with a present sense of grace, which afterwards proves evanescent.

You just have to hope you really are part of the elect as you can really never know until you pass from this mortal coil. And then it is to late to affect your future.

Your calvinism is something i have never read before, as have read Calvin, Frame, berkhof, Spurgeon etc, but none hold to it as you do!

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Hyper Calvinists on here are ones that believe that they were justified from eternity or at least from the time of Christ's death. They believe that getting saved is actually just realizing that you have been justified.
And this is the hard one: they believe that the "offer" of the gospel is not real to those who are not elect.

There is a Christian website run, I believe, by Phil Johnson, which states the following:

A hyper-Calvinist is someone who either:

1. Denies that the gospel call applies to all who hear, OR
2. Denies that faith is the duty of every sinner, OR
3. Denies that the gospel makes any "offer" of Christ, salvation, or mercy to the non-elect (or denies that the offer of divine mercy is free and universal), OR
4. Denies that there is such a thing as "common grace," OR
5. Denies that God has any sort of love for the non-elect.

No.1 contradicts Isaiah 55:1 and Matthew 11:28, and most especially and incontrovertibly, Mark 1:15.
No.2 follows on from it. If the Lord Jesus says, "Repent and believe," it is the duty of all who hear Him preached and all who read the words to obey them. 'God now commands all men everywhere to repent.'
No.3. I personally dislike the term 'offer' because I can't think where it occurs in the Bible in the context of the Gospel. But the Gospel is 'preached' or 'proclaimed' in the Bible and it proclaims forgiveness to all who repent and believe (Romans 9:33; Romans 10:13),
Nos. 4 & 5. We are told in the Scriptures that 'the LORD is gracious and full of compassion, slow to anger and full of mercy. The LORD is good to all, and His tender mercies are over all His works' (Psalms 145:8-9). In the N.T. we can see how that works out in practice. He 'makes His sun rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the just and the unjust.' He 'is kind to the unthankful and evil' (Matthew 5:45; Luke 6:35). He 'gives to all life, breath and all things' (Acts 17:23). '... What may be known of God is manifest among [men] for God has shown it to them........ so that they are without excuse' (Romans 1:19-20, NKJV margin). He 'endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction' (Romans 9:22).

Clearly there is 'common grace' shown to the elect. Whether or not one believes that it amounts to love is maybe a matter for debate.

 

[Silverhair]

Not Calvin, as we hold to what Jesus and Apostles stated regarding this!

If that were true then your biblical view would be different from what you hold to.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Further to my last post, I just found this article by Michael Horton, which I think is very good: Reformed Theology vs. Hyper-Calvinism by Michael Horton

 

[Silverhair]

There is a Christian website run, I believe, by Phil Johnson, which states the following:

A hyper-Calvinist is someone who either:

1. Denies that the gospel call applies to all who hear, OR
2. Denies that faith is the duty of every sinner, OR
3. Denies that the gospel makes any "offer" of Christ, salvation, or mercy to the non-elect (or denies that the offer of divine mercy is free and universal), OR
4. Denies that there is such a thing as "common grace," OR
5. Denies that God has any sort of love for the non-elect.

No.1 contradicts Isaiah 55:1 and Matthew 11:28, and most especially and incontrovertibly, Mark 1:15.
No.2 follows on from it. If the Lord Jesus says, "Repent and believe," it is the duty of all who hear Him preached and all who read the words to obey them. 'God now commands all men everywhere to repent.'
No.3. I personally dislike the term 'offer' because I can't think where it occurs in the Bible in the context of the Gospel. But the Gospel is 'preached' or 'proclaimed' in the Bible and it proclaims forgiveness to all who repent and believe (Romans 9:33; Romans 10:13),
Nos. 4 & 5. We are told in the Scriptures that 'the LORD is gracious and full of compassion, slow to anger and full of mercy. The LORD is good to all, and His tender mercies are over all His works' (Psalms 145:8-9). In the N.T. we can see how that works out in practice. He 'makes His sun rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the just and the unjust.' He 'is kind to the unthankful and evil' (Matthew 5:45; Luke 6:35). He 'gives to all life, breath and all things' (Acts 17:23). '... What may be known of God is manifest among [men] for God has shown it to them........ so that they are without excuse' (Romans 1:19-20, NKJV margin). He 'endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction' (Romans 9:22).

Clearly there is 'common grace' shown to the elect. Whether or not one believes that it amounts to love is maybe a matter for debate.

So by your comment we are to conclude that you agree with all the other points

 

[Silverhair]

Your calvinism is something i have never read before, as have read Calvin, Frame, berkhof, Spurgeon etc, but none hold to it as you do!

Do the research yourself. The history is there for you to see if you want to find it. Early Augustine held to biblical free will but he ran to the far end of the logic pool when he dealt with Pelagious. As they say two wrongs do not make a right. If Augustine had just stuck with the bible text instead of running to the far end of the logic pool it would have been better.

 

[Silverhair]

One holding to eternal justification , as one is born into that state already!

Justification
In theology, remission of sin and absolution from guilt and punishment; or an act of free grace by which God pardons the sinner and accepts him as righteous, on account of the atonement of Christ.

So you believe that you were born sinless, that you were saved even before you were born?

 

[DaveXR650]

The mention of Phil Johnson got me thinking about this but there is a type of hyper Calvinism found only in some Baptist circles that says this: You get saved totally of your own free will. It was your decision. But, now that you are saved you can never lose your salvation no matter what you do - even if you were to stop believing. Your free will is now not of any consequence. The only pastor I've ever heard talk about this is John MacArthur, and he's tied in with Phil Johnson.

 

[Silverhair]

Yet another post with zero support from the Bible and no acknowledgement that humans are either slaves to sin or slaves to Christ. Freedom is entirely in your imagination.

Austin you can deny all you will but research the history for yourself. Look at your own doctrines and try to be honest with yourself. Either God made Israel reject His commands or they did so via their God given free will. Remember your the one that says for God to be sovereign then nothing can happen unless he decrees it. You have put yourself in this box.

According to your view even those that are slaves to sin or slaves to Christ are determined by your view of the sovereign God.

 

[atpollard]

When we look at the foundation of Calvinism we find that modern Calvinists interpretation of Scripture comes from Calvin

False.
Try again.