Is Creation BY or THROUGH Jesus Christ?

[SavedByGrace]

Donall and Conall said it best.

never even heard of them!

 

[canadyjd]

the theology of Van, and some others here, especially their Christology, is questionable, as they have this warped idea, that somehow God the Father is the "Primary" Member in the Godhead. This is theological nonsense, which was pushed by the early Church heretic, Origen, and adopted by many of the Orthodox Church Fathers, as do some even today.

Attempting to fully understand the relationship of the three persons within the one Godhead will always fall short.

However, God has revealed Himself as Father, Son, Holy Spirit. That reveals something of that relationship. Jesus said He doesn’t act of His own will but He does the will of His Father. That reveals something of the relationship within the Godhead.

We can affirm the equality of the three persons within the Godhead while also acknowledging that scripture teaches us that the Son does the will of the Father and Holy Spirit is sent into the world by the Son.

There is no conflicting wills within the Godhead at anytime. There is perfect unity in thought and action.

peace to you

 

[JesusFan]

the theology of Van, and some others here, especially their Christology, is questionable, as they have this warped idea, that somehow God the Father is the "Primary" Member in the Godhead. This is theological nonsense, which was pushed by the early Church heretic, Origen, and adopted by many of the Orthodox Church Fathers, as do some even today.

there does seem to be some who have an interesting take on who Jesus really is!

 

[agedman]

The trinity will always remain (to the human intellect) a somewhat difficulty in both comprehending and indescribable. It is best held as factual and not become so enthralled as to slip into some human depictions or presentations.

That stated, I will give a few reflections concerning the OP points without spending much in trivial pursuit so the readers of the forum may comprehend more readily.

1. The opening of Genesis uses the word Elohim. This is a plural which (imo) led the translators to later use the word “us” as in, “let “us” make man in “our” image.”
2. We Do Not worship a polytheistic god, “The Lord our God is One…”
3. The Apostles often expresses the use of the Father and Son in terms of priorities and responsibility. 1 Peter, Titus, 1 John, 2 John, 1st & 2nd Timothy, Corinthians, Ephesians… all have examples of the two stations - Father and Son.
4. In the Revelation, the God (Father) Lord (Jesus) are shown as two, co equal along with the seven Spirits of God.
5. The trinity was involved in the conception in Mary.
6. When giving a lecture on how to pray, we are told to address The Father in terms of determining or making (aorist) holy, not just as one might acknowledge, but to actively consecrate the very essence of the name of God.
7. In the Apostles letters (relying upon my memory and open for correction by others) the Father/Son use is based upon the same as Jesus regarded. That is the relationship of the Son working through and by the authority of the Father. “If you have seen me you have seen the Father…”
8. The world creation was an act of The God, The Trinity and will be comprehended fully only when we see Him and know as we are known.

Separating the trinity into three persons is fine from our human perspective, and to that end God revealed in Scriptures that which He desired us to know, but do not think a book can contain all the information, just all we need to know.

Therefore, do not be as some who in failing to comprehend (for the very God thoughts and ways are not ours) and in the failing depart from truth and embrace error.


This post is open to any that can show by the Scriptures where error has occurred. As always I welcome such correction.

 

[SavedByGrace]

The opening of Genesis uses the word Elohim. This is a plural which (imo) led the translators to later use the word “us” as in, “let “us” make man in “our” image.”

For starters this is unbiblical nonsense! What do you mean "led the translators to later use the word “us” as in, “let “us” make man in “our” image"? You denying that Moses wrote Genesis? The PLURAL is used because of the PLURALITY of PERSONS in the Eternal Godhead, Who are 100% COEQUAL, COETERNAL, COESSENTIAL.

Your theology is very much NOT Bible!

 

[SavedByGrace]

In the Revelation, the God (Father) Lord (Jesus) are shown as two, co equal along with the seven Spirits of God

So, now we have NINE in the Trinity??? Which is what the heretic, Benny Hinn teaches!!!

The Holy Spirit, Who is ONE, has now become SEVEN???

More heresy!

 

[SavedByGrace]

The trinity was involved in the conception in Mary

How so Jesus Christ, was He His own Father?

Your theology is getting much worse!

 

[SavedByGrace]

In the Apostles letters (relying upon my memory and open for correction by others

more RUBBISH, the Holy Spirit told them what they should write! Unless you deny the complete INFALLIBILITY and INERRANCY of the 66 Books of the Original Autographs?

 

[SavedByGrace]

“If you have seen me you have seen the Father…”

so Jesus Christ IS God the Father, the same identical Person???

 

[SavedByGrace]

Separating the trinity into three persons is fine from our human perspective

It is 100% BIBLICAL!

 

[SavedByGrace]

This post is open to any that can show by the Scriptures where error has occurred. As always I welcome such correction.

LOTS of UNBIBLICAL HERESY!

 

[AustinC]

For starters this is unbiblical nonsense! What do you mean "led the translators to later use the word “us” as in, “let “us” make man in “our” image"? You denying that Moses wrote Genesis? The PLURAL is used because of the PLURALITY of PERSONS in the Eternal Godhead, Who are 100% COEQUAL, COETERNAL, COESSENTIAL.

Your theology is very much NOT Bible!

Did you even read what agedman wrote or did you just decide you were going to go off?
He wrote:

The opening of Genesis uses the word Elohim. This is a plural which (imo) led the translators to later use the word “us” as in, “let “us” make man in “our” image.”

Now, where in that post does he say anything about Moses, let alone deny who wrote Genesis.
Honestly, just read his post and actually comprehend what he wrote. He simply stated what nearly everyone knows.

 

[agedman]

So, now we have NINE in the Trinity??? Which is what the heretic, Benny Hinn teaches!!!

The Holy Spirit, Who is ONE, has now become SEVEN???

More heresy!

Rather than try to refute me with a rant, use the Scriptures!

And out of the throne come flashes of lightning, and voices, and thunderings. And there were seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God.
​

 

[SavedByGrace]

Did you even read what agedman wrote or did you just decide you were going to go off?
He wrote:

Now, where in that post does he say anything about Moses, let alone deny who wrote Genesis.
Honestly, just read his post and actually comprehend what he wrote. He simply stated what nearly everyone knows.

"led the translators to later use the word “us” as in, “let “us” make man in “our” image.”

In case you can't read Hebrew, the words are PLURAL in the ORIGINAL, nothing to do with TRANSLATORS!

If the Hebrew is PLURAL, then all that can be used in ANY language, is PLURAL.

by LATER, it means that the ORIGINAL did not say that!

Can you get this?

 

[SavedByGrace]

Rather than try to refute me with a rant, use the Scriptures!

And out of the throne come flashes of lightning, and voices, and thunderings. And there were seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God.
​

As in Isaiah 11:2

"And the spirit of the Lord shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the Lord"

NOT SEVEN Spirit's, but SEVEN GIFTS/OFFICES!

 

[agedman]

How so Jesus Christ, was He His own Father?

Your theology is getting much worse!

Again, I much more you refute me with the use of Scriptures.

35The angel replied, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. So the Holy One to be bornd will be called the Son of God.​

And again,

And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us. And we beheld His glory, a glory as of an only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth.
​

The trinity at conception.

 

[agedman]

more RUBBISH, the Holy Spirit told them what they should write! Unless you deny the complete INFALLIBILITY and INERRANCY of the 66 Books of the Original Autographs?

Never even suggested what you posted here.

 

[agedman]

so Jesus Christ IS God the Father, the same identical Person???

Do you refute the quote from Scripture as being inaccurate?

Jesus says to him, "Am I with you so long a time, and you have not known Me, Philip? The one having seen Me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'?​

 

[SavedByGrace]

Again, I much more you refute me with the use of Scriptures.

35The angel replied, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. So the Holy One to be bornd will be called the Son of God.​

And again,

And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us. And we beheld His glory, a glory as of an only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth.
​

The trinity at conception.

WHERE does it say that Jesus Christ was INVOLVED in His Conception? It is God the Holy Spirit Who was caused the Conception in Mary, as is clear from the verse you quote, and Matthew 1:18-20

The Word, Jesus Christ, BECAME FLESH in the womb of Mary, by the Power of the Holy Spirit. Jesus did not CAUSE His own Conception in Mary, it is the Holy Spirit

 

[SavedByGrace]

Do you refute the quote from Scripture as being inaccurate?

Jesus says to him, "Am I with you so long a time, and you have not known Me, Philip? The one having seen Me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'?​

it is your understanding of the Scriptures that is wrong. Are you saying that Jesus Christ is the Father? Are you saying that God the Father was born from Mary? Are you saying that God the Father died on the cross?

Jesus is refuting Philip, who supposed that the Father is somehow greater than Himself, and Jesus goes on to show their essential unity as in the Godhead, "Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father in Me? The Words that I speak to you I do not speak of Myself, but the Father who dwells in Me, He does the works. Believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father in Me, or else believe Me for the very works themselves." (John 14:10-11)

Not that Jesus Christ is the identical Person as the Father, but their esential unity. Otherwise you are guilty of Unitarianism!