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Featured Not an either or atonement.

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by 37818, Jan 13, 2022.

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  1. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    The Biblical atonement of the redemption is not universalism. But is both a general redemption and the particular redemption where Christ secures the salvation of everyone the Father gives to Christ.
     
    #1 37818, Jan 13, 2022
  2. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    I like the how Justin Martyr described Christ's death as being for the whole human family (for human kind, bar none). This seems a fairly consistent belief throughout the early church.

    I suppose it would be fair to say they may not have asked the same questions that we often ask today. But if so, it may be just as fair to question the validity of some of the questions we ask.
     
    #2 JonC, Jan 13, 2022
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  3. Brightfame52

    Brightfame52 Well-Known Member

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    Thats inconsistent. The atonement is particular for all the Father gave the Son in election !
     
    #3 Brightfame52, Jan 23, 2022
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  4. tyndale1946

    tyndale1946 Well-Known Member
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    God chooses his own family... If you for one second think you chose God?... By his tender mercy alone... HE CHOSE YOU FIRST!... Brother Glen:)

    1 John 4:19 We love him, because he first loved us.

    If God didn't love you first, you would be doing the fire dance!
     
    #4 tyndale1946, Jan 23, 2022
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  5. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    Without the general redemption no one can know one has part in the particular redemption.
     
    #5 37818, Jan 23, 2022
  6. Brightfame52

    Brightfame52 Well-Known Member

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    Thats inconsistent !
     
    #6 Brightfame52, Jan 24, 2022
  7. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    #7 37818, Jan 24, 2022
  8. Brightfame52

    Brightfame52 Well-Known Member

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    Thats inconsistent.
     
    #8 Brightfame52, Jan 25, 2022
  9. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    No, it is essential. Without the general redemption no one knows today they were included in the redemption in order to believe they can be saved.
     
    #9 37818, Jan 25, 2022
  10. JesusFan

    JesusFan Well-Known Member

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    Yes, was a particular and definite salvation being purchased, not a general and potential olne!
     
    #10 JesusFan, Jan 25, 2022
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  11. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    #11 37818, Jan 25, 2022
  12. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    Without a general redemption no one has any basis to believe Christ paid for one's sins prior to believing.
     
    #12 37818, Jan 25, 2022
  13. Brightfame52

    Brightfame52 Well-Known Member

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    You inconsistent, general atonement and particular atonement. Thats doublemindedness !
     
    #13 Brightfame52, Jan 25, 2022
  14. Reformed1689

    Reformed1689 Well-Known Member

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    What makes you come to that conclusion?
     
    #14 Reformed1689, Jan 25, 2022
  15. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    Scripture. Romans 5:8 for example. Either it applies to any reader. Or it does not. If it doesn't, a yet lost person cannot presume that it would include them. But if it does apply to the modern, not yet saved reader, then you have a particular redemption through the general redemption being promised.
     
    #15 37818, Jan 25, 2022
  16. Reformed1689

    Reformed1689 Well-Known Member

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    No, it does not apply to any and all readers. You know that from chapter one.
     
    #16 Reformed1689, Jan 25, 2022
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  17. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    Not at all. The general redemption is essential. As I stated, without the general redemption no one can know to believe they have any part in redemption at all before one believes. In other words one has no redemption for one to believe in. Answer this, before you believed, how would you know you had any part in it? Without the general redemption you have absolutely no way to know Christ died for you.
     
    #17 37818, Jan 26, 2022
  18. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    Then you believe Romans 8:5 applies to no one beyond to whom the letter was addressed. What New Testament text tells anyone Christ paid for one's sins?
     
    #18 37818, Jan 26, 2022
  19. Reformed1689

    Reformed1689 Well-Known Member

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    I did not say that either. It was written to believers in Rome, not non-believers. So we, as believers, can apply it to us as well as we meet the same qualifications, aside from not living in Rome.
     
    #19 Reformed1689, Jan 26, 2022
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  20. atpollard

    atpollard Well-Known Member

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    How is this argument different from Classic Arminianism?
    • All men are fallen
    • God draws all men
    • Some men believe.
    Are we claiming TWO acts of redemption by God (God gives General Redemption to hear and Particular Redemption granting faith to some) or are we claiming synergism covered with a fig leaf (God gives General Redemption to hear and men choose to exercise their God-given faith)?
     
    #20 atpollard, Jan 26, 2022
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