canadyjd
Well-Known Member
And necessary for salvation. You cannot be in a right relationship with God (saved from His condemnation) without faith in Jesus.
peace to you
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Is believing/faith a work ?3
- Thread starter Brightfame52
- Start date
peace to you
Brightfame52
Well-Known Member
Robert Harbach wrote:
If faith is a condition unto my salvation which I must fulfill, if faith must originate with me, then my salvation is by works — and that excludes me — for all my works are filthy rags! Faith must be the gift of God so that I can believe! If I may believe through grace, then, praise God, my deliverance is His work from beginning to end! This is Calvinism. It is unpopular, but it is right. It is despised but glorious. It alone can say, Sola Dei Gloria!
Calvinism Unpopular But Right
This article first appeared in the December 1966 issue of the Standard Bearer, vol.43, Issue 5. The religious and doctrinal outlook of this now beyond middle age twentieth century is not that of Calvinism or that of the Reformed Faith. It is rather that of an inclusivistic or syncretistic and...
www.prca.org
If faith is a condition unto my salvation which I must fulfill, if faith must originate with me, then my salvation is by works — and that excludes me — for all my works are filthy rags! Faith must be the gift of God so that I can believe! If I may believe through grace, then, praise God, my deliverance is His work from beginning to end! This is Calvinism. It is unpopular, but it is right. It is despised but glorious. It alone can say, Sola Dei Gloria!
Calvinism Unpopular But Right
This article first appeared in the December 1966 issue of the Standard Bearer, vol.43, Issue 5. The religious and doctrinal outlook of this now beyond middle age twentieth century is not that of Calvinism or that of the Reformed Faith. It is rather that of an inclusivistic or syncretistic and...
www.prca.org
Brightfame52
Well-Known Member
Yeah you are promoting salvation by works, by what a person does. We do not have anything in common.
canadyjd
Well-Known Member
Oh good grief. Read your own post. Mr. Harbach, whom you quoted to support your position, agrees with me. “If faith must originate with me, then my salvation is by works.”
He affirms faith is necessary, but that such faith must originate with God.
“Faith must be a gift of God that I may believe”.
You simply misunderstand scripture and the role faith in Jesus has in bringing someone into a right relationship with God.
peace to you
You place a condition on God to make faith necessary in a dead person before God can save them by grace.
I think Ephesians 2:1-9 is pretty clear that such a condition is not demanded by God as the cause agent which effects God to be gracious.
I add that Romans establishes God causing and faith being and effect, as does Ephesians 1.
You can keep stating your case, but at present, I am the only one of us that has provided scripture for my support on my view. I am curious as to your scriptural support for faith coming before grace.
Is faith found in dead people?
canadyjd
Well-Known Member
You are mischaracterizing my belief. I never stated our “faith” was the “cause agent” for God’s grace.
Keep arguing with your straw-men.
Thanks for the conversation
peace to you
Then faith cannot come before God makes a person alive. The text, Ephesians 2:4-9, doesn't allow for faith to exist before salvation unless dead people have faith before God causes them to be saved. The text informs us of this. My friend, I think we are going in circles because you refuse to address the text and are trying to force it to fit your presupposition. I can only keep pointing you to the text and keep asking you to wrestle with it since it does not support your presupposition.
"OUR faith" is the claim that some make concerning the origin of faith being that which all men have as an innate ability to exercise at will or at least until the Grace of God lifts one to a place that the will may be expressed.
Such thinking has no truth from Scripture principles.
"OUR faith" is the claim that some make concerning the origin of faith as a part of the human character. As such, there is the thinking that "If I just have enough faith..." but apparently one doesn't for unfortunately only a few come to a successful conclusion to the desire.
This thinking also has no truth from Scripture principles.
"OUR faith" is the claim that some make concerning the origin of faith as being a gracious gift of God bestowed upon those given ears to hear the gospel message. It is a personal owned faith measured to each believer not only for belief but for the work of the ministry.
This thinking is directly from the truth of Scriptures.
The enlargement of "our faith" (that which God gives for our possession) is by the work of the Holy Spirit gifting through experience and study of Scriptures.
An example is given of faith being the gift of a small mirror in which such things as love, joy, long suffering, ... embellish or adorn the mirror to draw the attention to the mirror. Therefore, the mirror appears larger then when first given. The character of a person, in which one adds to their faith "virtue, to virtue knowledge ..." are not gifts of the Spirit but the working of the Spirit bringing need of purification to the believer.
Too often, (IMO) the pew sitting believers (or not) are content rather then being made aware that a certain accountability will be expected from the Savior for the Gift God Gave - faith.
Such thinking has no truth from Scripture principles.
"OUR faith" is the claim that some make concerning the origin of faith as a part of the human character. As such, there is the thinking that "If I just have enough faith..." but apparently one doesn't for unfortunately only a few come to a successful conclusion to the desire.
This thinking also has no truth from Scripture principles.
"OUR faith" is the claim that some make concerning the origin of faith as being a gracious gift of God bestowed upon those given ears to hear the gospel message. It is a personal owned faith measured to each believer not only for belief but for the work of the ministry.
This thinking is directly from the truth of Scriptures.
The enlargement of "our faith" (that which God gives for our possession) is by the work of the Holy Spirit gifting through experience and study of Scriptures.
An example is given of faith being the gift of a small mirror in which such things as love, joy, long suffering, ... embellish or adorn the mirror to draw the attention to the mirror. Therefore, the mirror appears larger then when first given. The character of a person, in which one adds to their faith "virtue, to virtue knowledge ..." are not gifts of the Spirit but the working of the Spirit bringing need of purification to the believer.
Too often, (IMO) the pew sitting believers (or not) are content rather then being made aware that a certain accountability will be expected from the Savior for the Gift God Gave - faith.
canadyjd
Well-Known Member
Once again, you are equating regeneration “being made Alive” with salvation.
I accept scripture in context. I have no presuppositions, other than I believe what scripture says over man’s interpretation of what it says.
I can reconcile my belief with all passages of scripture. You ignore all passages of scripture that plainly state faith in Jesus is required for salvation.
peace to you
Not so much to but in, but do you place salvation as if it waits upon a human to respond before it is made alive?
canadyjd
Well-Known Member
From a theological perspective, it is helpful, imo, to show an “order of salvation”. That is recognizing man’s sinful state of spiritual death and inability, then God Holy Spirit intervening to make the person “alive” (regeneration) in which the person is made to have the ability to understand the truth of their sinful condition and of Christ and His sacrificial death, the moment they are given the faith by God to realize that truth and accept Christ as Savior they pass from death to life and are no longer under God’s condemnation.
Although it is explained as a series of “steps”, it is probably more accurate to say it occurs simultaneously following God’s intervention and making the person “alive”.
One thing is certain. Scripture clearly tells us faith in Jesus is necessary for salvation. You cannot be placed in a right relationship with Gods without faith in Jesus.
peace to you
I am equating saved by grace with "But God...even while we were dead...made us alive with Christ. I do this because the text does this.
May I ask this:
Can an unsaved person be made alive with Christ and be seated in the heavenlies with Christ?
The text says that God made us alive with Christ (quickened and placed in Christ in the heavenlies). Saved by grace.
If I follow your thought, you are saying that a person is made alive (regenerated) before salvation, because that regenerated person still has to exercise faith in order to be saved.
Does the text express that process?
I do not think it does.
Would you share the scripture that requires faith before salvation?
canadyjd
Well-Known Member
I’ll let you look it up yourself. You are more likely to read it, believe it and remember it if you look it up yourself.
peace to you
canadyjd
Well-Known Member
You are taking Paul’s words referring to regeneration in which he obviously pauses in his thoughts to express that we are saved by God’s grace, with regeneration demonstrating God’s intervention that allows us to have faith in Jesus, and then he continues.
Why not focus on “saved by grace through faith”? Isn’t that part of the same passage? And that not of yourself, but a gift of God.
Why can’t you realize the entirety of the passage is explaining God’s work in bringing someone to salvation? See the whole, not just the one sentence
This is my last word as I have said all that I can.
peace to you
You are ignoring this important point, and my question:
God made a person alive with Christ and seated that person in the heavenly places in Christ.
Was that done before salvation and before faith was exhibited unto salvation, as you claim?
In this passage, regeneration and seated in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus happen at the same time. How could that be before salvation?
But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved— and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.
~ Ephesians 2:4-7
Second, go back to my early statement on the issue of "Saved by grace through faith." I told you how verses 5-7 define and explain faith as the gift of God that is given immediately upon salvation and confirms the salvation that God has graciously given so that no one can boast.
Dear sir, I have explained this to you. What more can I do?
Finally, I am hoping to see the verses you provide that support your contention that faith must be exhibited before God can save anyone.
I accept this as your unwillingness to do your due diligence in arguing your point and thus I take it as acknowledgment that I have made my point.
canadyjd
Well-Known Member
You have a bad habit of rephrasing the statements I have made to make it appear I am saying something I am not.
Such intellectual dishonesty makes rational discussion impossible.
Therefore, I’ll leave you to it.
peace to you