Penal Substitution Theory

[agedman]

From a previously closed thread, the presentation of Deuteronomy, Isaiah, and Galatians were being discussed.

This discussion needs (imo) to be continued.

It has been held in this forum so all may participate.

If you are not a Baptist, and not a member, you may certainly participate by signing up on the forum and participating. This is not strictly a Baptist discussion, but one bridges multiple assemblies.

To open this discussion we consider the following issues:

How, who, and what of Isaiah 53.

The “curse” presented by one hanging on a tree presented in Deuteronomy 21 and Galatians 3.

The basic question: Is PSA theory present the truthfulness of Scripture?

A related question is there a more truthful presentation of Scripture?

 

[JesusFan]

From a previously closed thread, the presentation of Deuteronomy, Isaiah, and Galatians were being discussed.

This discussion needs (imo) to be continued.

It has been held in this forum so all may participate.

If you are not a Baptist, and not a member, you may certainly participate by signing up on the forum and participating. This is not strictly a Baptist discussion, but one bridges multiple assemblies.

To open this discussion we consider the following issues:

How, who, and what of Isaiah 53.

The “curse” presented by one hanging on a tree presented in Deuteronomy 21 and Galatians 3.

The basic question: Is PSA theory present the truthfulness of Scripture?

A related question is there a more truthful presentation of Scripture?

Is God the Father right in pouring out His deserved wrath and Judgement upon Jesus, not due to Jesus sins at all, as he had none and was the spotless Lamb of God, but was our great sin bearer in our stead?

Or is that "cosmic child abuse?"

 

[kyredneck]

The basic question: Is PSA theory present the truthfulness of Scripture?

IMO, yes, but so do the other theories. I think probably the 'penal' aspect of PSA appeals more to the 'hell fire damnation types' while substitution and ransom is more acceptable to 'God is love' types.

 

[JesusFan]

IMO, yes, but so do the other theories. I think probably the 'penal' aspect of PSA appeals more to the 'hell fire damnation types' while substitution and ransom is more acceptable to 'God is love' types.

Its not "hellfire", as really its trying to see the very basis on how the Father can freely justify and redeem sinners and yet still remain Holy and true to His very nature

 

[agedman]

Its not "hellfire", as really its trying to see the very basis on how the Father can freely justify and redeem sinners and yet still remain Holy and true to His very nature

The victorious Christ thinking does that better in my opinion.

 

[JonC]

Scripture is very simple....so much so that the World views it as foolishness.

Through Adam's transgression sin entered the World and through sin death. God promised Adam deliverance in that while the Serpent will strike the heel He will crush ots head.

Man falls short of God's glory. God gave Israel the Law. This provided man with an example or manifestation of God's righteousness. Man cannot meet this righteousness.

In His forbearance God implemented a sacrificial system where by He would pass over sins until the New Covenant. The sacrificial system foreshadowed the sin offering God would make by sending His Son to bear our sins in His body.

Christ suffered and died under the judgment of the World which esteemed Him as stricken by God. God vindicated His Son and raised Him to life, giving all judgment to Him.

Christ did not die to appease God. No Christian until the Reformation taught that Christ died to appease God. Augustine put it best when he described such belief as heresy.

Christ died to appease the World, to appease a satanic idea of justice that would seek to kill the Righteous One.

We are redeemed from the chains of Satan, the bondage of sin and death. Those in Christ escape the Judgment to come.

Penal Substitution Theory is wrong. It is an attempt to interpret redemption via secular wisdom with Satan as the moral standard of justice. It is found nowhere in the Bible.

 

[37818]

Penal Substitution Theory

What is the difference between penal substution and penal substution "theory?"
Isaiah 53:6
Romans 5:8
1 Corinthians 15:3

 

[kyredneck]

We are redeemed from the chains of Satan, the bondage of sin and death. Those in Christ escape the Judgment to come.

...which jibes perfectly with the type:

5 And that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams, shall be put to death, because he hath spoken rebellion against Jehovah your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, and redeemed thee out of the house of bondage, to draw thee aside out of the way which Jehovah thy God commanded thee to walk in. So shalt thou put away the evil from the midst of thee. Dt 13

15 And thou shalt remember that thou wast a bondman in the land of Egypt, and Jehovah thy God redeemed thee: therefore I command thee this thing to-day. Dt 15

18 but thou shalt remember that thou wast a bondman in Egypt, and Jehovah thy God redeemed thee thence: therefore I command thee to do this thing. Dt 24

4 For I brought thee up out of the land of Egypt, and redeemed thee out of the house of bondage; and I sent before thee Moses, Aaron, and Miriam. Micah 5

7 Purge out the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, even as ye are unleavened. For our passover also hath been sacrificed, even Christ: 1 Cor 5

 

[JonC]

What is the difference between penal substution and penal substution "theory?"
Isaiah 53:6
Romans 5:8
1 Corinthians 15:3

If you mean Penal Substitution sticks with Scripture and rejects the theory that Christ's death was to appease God, God punished Christ (or our sins He laid on Him) instead of us, and Christ experienced God's wrath....then I have no issue. I believe the verses you provide do very well with the Atonement.

 

[37818]

If you mean Penal Substitution sticks with Scripture and rejects the theory that Christ's death was to appease God, God punished Christ (or our sins He laid on Him) instead of us, and Christ experienced God's wrath....then I have no issue. I believe the verses you provide do very well with the Atonement.

Christ suffered and was forsaken of God His Father on behalf of our sins, 1 Corinthians 15:3, ". . . how that Christ died for our sins . . . ." υπερ
1 Peter 3:18, ". . . For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, . . ."
Matthew 27:46, ". . . My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? . . ." This is penal substution, and not theory. How is penal substution "theory" different?

 

[JonC]

Christ suffered and was forsaken of God His Father on behalf of our sins, 1 Corinthians 15:3, ". . . how that Christ died for our sins . . . ." υπερ
1 Peter 3:18, ". . . For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, . . ."
Matthew 27:46, ". . . My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? . . ." This is penal substution, and not theory. How is penal substution "theory" different?

Exactly.

Christ bore our sins in His body. He died the death we earn. He died for our sins - the Just for the unjust. And, God forsake Christ to suffer and die at the hands of wicked men.

And when Christ suffered and died at the hands of these wicked men, under the power of Satan, God vindicated Him and raised Him from the dead. Christ, having gained victory over sin and death, having victory over Satan, freed us from its bonds. Death no longer has its sting.

It has nothing to do with Penal Substitution Theory, though. That theory replaces evil with God and claims Christ suffered and died at God's hand (rather than at the hands of "wicked men" under the predetermined plan of God.

The Theory is different because it changes and adds to Scripture. It is a false doctrine.

 

[JesusFan]

The victorious Christ thinking does that better in my opinion.

How are the sinners sins counted for and atoned for by that view?

 

[JesusFan]

Scripture is very simple....so much so that the World views it as foolishness.

Through Adam's transgression sin entered the World and through sin death. God promised Adam deliverance in that while the Serpent will strike the heel He will crush ots head.

Man falls short of God's glory. God gave Israel the Law. This provided man with an example or manifestation of God's righteousness. Man cannot meet this righteousness.

In His forbearance God implemented a sacrificial system where by He would pass over sins until the New Covenant. The sacrificial system foreshadowed the sin offering God would make by sending His Son to bear our sins in His body.

Christ suffered and died under the judgment of the World which esteemed Him as stricken by God. God vindicated His Son and raised Him to life, giving all judgment to Him.

Christ did not die to appease God. No Christian until the Reformation taught that Christ died to appease God. Augustine put it best when he described such belief as heresy.

Christ died to appease the World, to appease a satanic idea of justice that would seek to kill the Righteous One.

We are redeemed from the chains of Satan, the bondage of sin and death. Those in Christ escape the Judgment to come.

Penal Substitution Theory is wrong. It is an attempt to interpret redemption via secular wisdom with Satan as the moral standard of justice. It is found nowhere in the Bible.

How was the wrath and judgement of God the father towards sinners then appeased and atoned for?

 

[JesusFan]

Exactly.

Christ bore our sins in His body. He died the death we earn. He died for our sins - the Just for the unjust. And, God forsake Christ to suffer and die at the hands of wicked men.

And when Christ suffered and died at the hands of these wicked men, under the power of Satan, God vindicated Him and raised Him from the dead. Christ, having gained victory over sin and death, having victory over Satan, freed us from its bonds. Death no longer has its sting.

It has nothing to do with Penal Substitution Theory, though. That theory replaces evil with God and claims Christ suffered and died at God's hand (rather than at the hands of "wicked men" under the predetermined plan of God.

The Theory is different because it changes and adds to Scripture. It is a false doctrine.

God the Father treated Jesus as our Sin bearer, as it was NOT the world dealing with Him upon that Cross, but the transaction between the father and then Son that purchased and redeemed as back!

 

[JesusFan]

Exactly.

Christ bore our sins in His body. He died the death we earn. He died for our sins - the Just for the unjust. And, God forsake Christ to suffer and die at the hands of wicked men.

And when Christ suffered and died at the hands of these wicked men, under the power of Satan, God vindicated Him and raised Him from the dead. Christ, having gained victory over sin and death, having victory over Satan, freed us from its bonds. Death no longer has its sting.

It has nothing to do with Penal Substitution Theory, though. That theory replaces evil with God and claims Christ suffered and died at God's hand (rather than at the hands of "wicked men" under the predetermined plan of God.

The Theory is different because it changes and adds to Scripture. It is a false doctrine.

God the Father had to have One receive His due wrath and Judgement for our sins!

 

[JonC]

How was the wrath and judgement of God the father towards sinners then appeased and atoned for?

Christ did not appease God. Christ died under the powers of this world, under the bondage of sin and death. God vindicated Christ. All judgment has been given to Christ (John 5:22).

 

[JonC]

God the Father had to have One receive His due wrath and Judgement for our sins!

According to Penal Substitution Theory He did. But not according to the Bible.

 

[JonC]

God the Father treated Jesus as our Sin bearer, as it was NOT the world dealing with Him upon that Cross, but the transaction between the father and then Son that purchased and redeemed as back!

Christ did bear our sins. And He suffered under the bondage of sin and death, the powers of this world.

Unless Peter was wrong in Acts, and God was wrong in Genesis, then it was the World's "justice" under which Christ suffered and died (by the predetermined plan of God).

 

[JesusFan]

According to Penal Substitution Theory He did. But not according to the Bible.

Does God have active wrath and condemnation towards those in hell?

 

[JesusFan]

Christ did bear our sins. And He suffered under the bondage of sin and death, the powers of this world.

Unless Peter was wrong in Acts, and God was wrong in Genesis, then it was the World's "justice" under which Christ suffered and died (by the predetermined plan of God).

Jesus took upon Himself and suffered per the will of the Father as per Isaiah 53!