False Religion of Arminianism 2

[SavedByGrace]

You only need to read one more verse for the Bible to provide the answer:

Romans 9:
22 What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? 23 And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory, 24 even us, whom He also called, not from among Jews only, but also from among Gentiles.​

sill avoiding the fact, that God is LONGSUFFERING towards those who are perishing, exactly what Peter says in 2 Peter 3:9, "The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward YOU, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance"

 

[37818]

They are not likely to hear a single verse with no context around it. If it is part of a speech, they will hear whatever the speaker has crafted the context to support. If they hear all of Romans 5, they will learn the critical point that Paul was making (which is not about Limited or General

So why would said hearers not consider themselves as not one for whom Christ is claimed to have die, ". . . while we were yet sinners . . . ." No reason at all.

If they are like most people, they will ignore “we” and “us” and hear “I” and “me” … sidestepping Limited or General and being shocked to learn of a Personal Atonement. It will be years before they argue these nuances with other Christians (if they are lucky).

 

[Dave G]

WHY is this passage always quoted to try to show, which it does NOT, that God's Mercy is only for the "elect", which it does NOT refer to???

Because it says that He has mercy upon whom He will have mercy.
If you'll notice the context of Romans 9, my friend, it speaks of both the children of God, and those that are not.

As an example, God loved Jacob and hated Esau ( Romans 9:13 ).
Just as a potter makes some vessels to honor, and some to dishonor, so God makes vessels of mercy and vessels of wrath ( Romans 9:22-24 ).

Romans 11:32 is very clear on this:

"For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all"

I agree.
All of mankind has been concluded, by the Lord, in unbelief....
So that God might ( signifies purpose ) have mercy upon all.

But again, according to what He just laid out 2 chapters before,
He has mercy and compassion upon whom He wills, and who He wills He hardens...just as He did Pharoah in Moses' time.

 

[Dave G]

The ALL in both places is the SAME, Jews and Gentiles, which is the entire human race! If you are not the one, the you are the other!

Look at Romans 9 closer, SBG.

Are not the vessels of mercy the ones God loves, and the vessels of wrath the ones He does not?
Are not the vessels of mercy the ones foreknown, predestinated, called, justified and glorified just as Romans 8 states?
Are they not His chosen, His "elect" that God justifies ( Romans 8:28-33 ), and who shall never be separated from the love of God ( Romans 8:34-39 )?

Are not the vessels of mercy the ones that are "called", both Jews and Gentiles?

I see that all of this is true according to God's word.

Be honest when quoting what the Bible says, and not just chose those places that suit your "theology"!

Respectfully,
My "theology" ( my understanding of God's word ) comes from what's written on the pages, my friend.

I'm not quoting it to suit my own "pet theology"...
I'm quoting based on what it says.

 

[37818]

Even though it might be done unintentionally, and with sincerity the doctrines of arminianism teaches that God isnt exclusively the Saviour of His People, which He does affirms Isa 43:11

I, even I, am the Lord; and beside me there is no saviour.

You make this accusation here without presenting any kind of explicit evidence. None what so ever.

 

[Dave G]

@SavedByGrace :

" There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof [are] the ways of death." ( Proverbs 14:12 ).

Do you know what the "way" is that is being referred to here?

Works, my friend. That is the way that we as men naturally think that we must approach God...
For Him to give us something to do in order to curry His favor.

But the Lord does not accept our works, He only accepts His work and the work of His Son.

Repentance is a gift ( Acts of the Apostles 5:31, Acts of the Apostles 11:18, 2 Timothy 2:25 ), and must be granted to someone because of our hard-heartedness.
That repentance comes through God's work of the new birth, being "born again".

I'm sorry that you don't seem to understand just how desperate mankind is outside of Christ and God's mercy and compassion.

Good afternoon to you.

 

[atpollard]

So why would said hearers not consider themselves as not one for whom Christ is claimed to have die, ". . . while we were yet sinners . . . ." No reason at all.

I grew up in a family that attended Church twice a year and considered themselves Christian - even though my father didn’t believe God existed, my mother believed that her prayers to Mary and time in purgatory would save her, and my aunts/uncles/cousins exhibited no FRUIT (ever) in their lives. So what “hearers believe” and REALITY are often two very different things.

I admitted that the hearers would consider themselves one for whom Christ died. Hell is probably FULL of people who once thought that Christ had died for them. The question is … is it true?

The answer is “that verse (Romans 5:8) does not say that Christ died for all without exception”. It says that Christ died for the saved when we were still sinners. (WE and US is “Paul and the Saints in Rome to whom Paul is writing” in that verse).

 

[atpollard]

sill avoiding the fact, that God is LONGSUFFERING towards those who are perishing, exactly what Peter says in 2 Peter 3:9, "The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward YOU, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance"

What are you talking about? I am ignoring NOTHING! You asked a question “why” and God had already said WHY in the very next verse, so I quoted the verse you asked about and the NEXT VERSE where God says WHY.

If you have a problem with God’s answer, take it up with the author.


PS. In 2 Peter 3:9 who is “YOU” (Hint: Peter was not writing an open letter to all humans without exception.)

 

[37818]

The answer is “that verse (Romans 5:8) does not say that Christ died for all without exception”. It says that Christ died for the saved when we were still sinners. (WE and US is “Paul and the Saints in Rome to whom Paul is writing” in that verse).

Unless the general redemption is true, even Calvinists who believe solely in the particular redemption have no way of knowing Christ died for them before they choose to believe thinking they were God's elect. Matthew 7:21. If the general redemption is not true there is no honest gospel to be preached to the "every creature." Mark 16:15, Colossians 1:23, 1 Corinthians 15:2-4, includeding Romans 5:8 would not be honest to all hearers. The more I hear this foolishness, the more I begin to think 5 point Calvinism should called a false gospel. While that may not be reasonable, it is more reasonable than 5 point Calvinism.

 

[atpollard]

Unless the general redemption is true, even Calvinists who believe solely in the particular redemption have no way of knowing Christ died for them before they choose to believe thinking they were God's elect. Matthew 7:21. If the general redemption is not true there is no honest gospel to be preached to the "every creature." Mark 16:15, Colossians 1:23, 1 Corinthians 15:2-4, includeding Romans 5:8 would not be honest to all hearers. The more I hear this foolishness, the more I begin to think 5 point Calvinism should called a false gospel. While that may not be reasonable, it is more reasonable than 5 point Calvinism.

What is the true Gospel?
Is it not “whoever believes shall be saved”.

[John 3:16-21 NASB95]

16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. 17 "For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him. 18 "He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 "This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil. 20 "For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. 21 "But he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God."​

[John 6:43-47 NASB95]

43 Jesus answered and said to them, "Do not grumble among yourselves. 44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day. 45 "It is written in the prophets, 'AND THEY SHALL ALL BE TAUGHT OF GOD.' Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father, comes to Me. 46 "Not that anyone has seen the Father, except the One who is from God; He has seen the Father. 47 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life.​

[John 10:24-31 NASB95]

24 The Jews then gathered around Him, and were saying to Him, "How long will You keep us in suspense? If You are the Christ, tell us plainly." 25 Jesus answered them, "I told you, and you do not believe; the works that I do in My Father's name, these testify of Me. 26 "But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep. 27 "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; 28 and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. 29 "My Father, who has given [them] to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch [them] out of the Father's hand. 30 "I and the Father are one." 31 The Jews picked up stones again to stone Him.​

[Romans 9:6-8 NASB95]

6 But [it is] not as though the word of God has failed. For they are not all Israel who are [descended] from Israel; 7 nor are they all children because they are Abraham's descendants, but: "THROUGH ISAAC YOUR DESCENDANTS WILL BE NAMED." 8 That is, it is not the children of the flesh who are children of God, but the children of the promise are regarded as descendants.​

[Romans 9:15-18 NASB95]

15 For He says to Moses, "I WILL HAVE MERCY ON WHOM I HAVE MERCY, AND I WILL HAVE COMPASSION ON WHOM I HAVE COMPASSION." 16 So then it [does] not [depend] on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "FOR THIS VERY PURPOSE I RAISED YOU UP, TO DEMONSTRATE MY POWER IN YOU, AND THAT MY NAME MIGHT BE PROCLAIMED THROUGHOUT THE WHOLE EARTH." 18 So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires.​

[Romans 9:21-24 NASB95]

21 Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use? 22 What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? 23 And [He did so] to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory, 24 [even] us, whom He also called, not from among Jews only, but also from among Gentiles.​

I see in God’s plan provision for both the vessels of wrath and vessels of honor throughout scripture. Why MUST God “bless” those he will ultimately damn? The WORD is not written (or preached) to those that are damned, it is written and preached to those that are being saved.


What “good news” is there for the enemies of God that will one day face His wrath? “Christ died for you, but you are damned forever” is no “gospel”.

 

[37818]

What is the true Gospel?
Is it not “whoever believes shall be saved”.

One who is from God; He has seen the Father. 47 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life.

Jesus did not teach that, but rather, [NKJV,] ' - “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me has everlasting life. '

 

[Brightfame52]

YOUR "truth", not what the Bible says!

Show from John 3:15-18, WHERE it says that Jesus Christ Died for the "elect" only? Even John Calvin disagress with "Calvinists" on this!

John Calvin, had this to say on this verse:

“That whosoever believeth on him may not perish. It is a remarkable commendation of faith, that it frees us from everlasting destruction. For he intended expressly to state that, though we appear to have been born to death, undoubted deliverance is offered to us by the faith of Christ; and, therefore, that we ought not to fear death, which otherwise hangs over us. And he has employed the universal term whosoever, both to invite all indiscriminately to partake of life, and to cut off every excuse from unbelievers. Such is also the import of the term World, which he formerly used; for though nothing will be found in the world that is worthy of the favor of God, yet he shows himself to be reconciled to the whole world, when he invites all men without exception to the faith of Christ, which is nothing else than an entrance into life.”

This passage teaches of God's SAVING LOVE for the entire human race. The "WHOEVER believes should be saved", are those from the Kosmos of sinners who trust in Jesus Christ as their personal Saviour.

Those who argue that Kosmos here only refers to the "elect", have the problem that out of this "Kosmos", of "elect", are are only SOME who will actually believe and be saved, and the others of this "elect", will be LOST!

This is what Robert Dabney, the Reformed theologian wrote:

“In Jno.iii.16, make ‘the world’ which Christ loved, to mean ‘the elect world’, and we reach the absurdity, that some of the elect may not believe, and perish…since Christ made expiation for every man” (Systematic Theology, p.525)

Its biblical truth !

 

[Brightfame52]

Dude, it is YOU who present a FALSE salvation. Have you never read Mark 1:15?, "and saying, “The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand; REPENT and BELIEVE (FAITH) in the Gospel.”. And, Luke 24:47? "and that repentance for forgiveness of sins would be Preached in His name to all the nations, beginning from Jerusalem". And Acts 2:37-38? "
Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we DO? Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit"

THIS is what the Holy Bible says on HOW a lost sinner is born-again. NOT the so called "reformed" FALSE view!

Salvation is conditioned on Christ period ! You add anything man must do, or say, or even think, you make salvation and work of merit by man !

 

[Brightfame52]

You make this accusation here without presenting any kind of explicit evidence. None what so ever.

I have plenty of posts on this site that scripturally ratify my witness.

 

[37818]

I have plenty of posts on this site that scripturally ratify my witness.

Give one of your quotes which presents said evidence that Arminianism is a false religion. Just one.

 

[37818]

. . . add anything man must do, or say, or even think, you make salvation and work of merit by man !

So you believe Jesus taught works salvation too, ". . . Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father . . . ."

 

[Dave G]

So you believe Jesus taught works salvation too, ". . . Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father . . . ."

" Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of [his] good pleasure." ( Philippians 2:12-13 ).

Those that do His will are the ones He works through, are they not?

 

[37818]

" Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of [his] good pleasure." ( Philippians 2:12-13 ).

Those that do His will are the ones He works through, are they not?

My disagreement is with @Brightfame52.

 

[SavedByGrace]

Salvation is conditioned on Christ period ! You add anything man must do, or say, or even think, you make salvation and work of merit by man !

you contiunue your FALSEHOODS and call Jesus Christ a liar, because HE says that sinners must REPENT!

 

[SavedByGrace]

PS. In 2 Peter 3:9 who is “YOU” (Hint: Peter was not writing an open letter to all humans without exception.)

look that the context!

verse 4, "knowing this first, that in the last days mockers will come, walking after their own lusts"

verse 7, "But the heavens that exist now and the earth, by the same word have been stored up for fire, being reserved against the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men"

Are these the "elect"?

Verse 9 FOLLOWS these verses, and says

"The Lord is not slow concerning his promise, as some count slowness; but he is patient with YOU (as in verses 4 and 7), not wishing that anyone should perish, but that all should come to repentance"

WHY would the Lord need to be PATIENT for the "elect" to repent, because they WILL, according to your system?

WHY would it say, that God is not willing that any of the "elect" no perish, when they CANNOT, according to your system?

You see, IF you can, the Infallibe Word of God is AGAINST your theology!