Moving away from Doctrine? Maturity or Apostasy?

[JonC]

The Jewish people and their leaders who shouted "crucify!" and also the Romans had the exactly same purpose as God: the death of the Lord Jesus Christ.
"For truly, against Your holy Servant Jesus who You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate with the Gentiles and the people of Israel gathered together to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose determined before to be done." Quite unwittingly they were following the will of God.
The difference of course is described in Genesis 50:20. "But as for you, you meant evil against me, but God meant it for good, in order to bring it about as it is this day, to save many people alive."

With respect to this, Joseph had no hesitation in describing the sufferings inflicted upon him as coming from God. "So now it was not you who sent me here, but God" (Genesis 45:8). Now strictly speaking it was neither the brothers nor God who got Joseph to Egypt but the Ishmaelite traders, but Joseph recognizes the guiding hand of God and ascribes the whole thing to Him just as Isaiah does in Isaiah 53:10.

Yes. Christ suffered under the evil of this World by the predetermined plan of God. God was pleased to crush Him, to put Him to grief. He not o ly lay down His own life but the Father sent Him. He came to do the will of the Father. The World esteemed Him stricken by God when in fact He was redeeming them.

This is one way we know Penal Substitution Theory is a false doctrine.

 

[Reformed1689]

This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave Himself as a ransom for all, the testimony given at the proper time. 1Ti 2:3-6 NASB

The twisting is done when you take that verse out of context.

 

[robycop3]

Moving away from NON-SCRIPTURAL doctrine such as the preterism myth or the KJVO myth is always good, as such doctrines are false.

 

[Silverhair]

The twisting is done when you take that verse out of context.

Then why do you do it?

 

[Reformed1689]

Then why do you do it?

I don't

 

[Silverhair]

I don't

Then perhaps the problem is that you do not have good reading comprehension skills? The text is really clear.

 

[kyredneck]

In a recent thread a view of a poster suggested that Arminians get "saved"
Then move away from doctrine as they mature.
Do you believe that?

Yep. Happens to a whoooole lot of them:

How Should Arminians and Calvinists Approach One Another? | Baptist Christian Forums (baptistboard.com)

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Martin I can see one major difference between Joseph and Christ Jesus. Joseph did not have a choice about going to Egypt. Christ Jesus chose to go to the cross. Joh 10:17-18

I quite agree with you, but I don't see that your point affects my post.
Perhaps you will explain further.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Yes. Christ suffered under the evil of this World by the predetermined plan of God. God was pleased to crush Him, to put Him to grief. He not o ly lay down His own life but the Father sent Him. He came to do the will of the Father. The World esteemed Him stricken by God when in fact He was redeeming them.

This is one way we know Penal Substitution Theory is a false doctrine.

I fully agree that your PS Lite Theory is a false doctrine, but the Doctrine of Penal Substitution is correct, and your post has done absolutely nothing to prove otherwise.

 

[JonC]

I fully agree that your PS Lite Theory is a false doctrine, but the Doctrine of Penal Substitution is correct, and your post has done absolutely nothing to prove otherwise.

My post is not here to prove anything. Scripture is tge standard....and is what has proven the Penal Substitution Theory error.

You gave your defi itinerary of the Doctrine of Penal Substitution. That definition excluded those things where the Penal Substitution Theory of Atonement goes astray from the Christian faith. That is good.

I am glad you reject Penal Substitution Theory (what you call "PS Lite"). I agree it is very unbiblical as it adds paganism to Scripture. It holds that the Father inflicted suffering and death on Christ and that Christ experienced God's wrath.

I think we can at least agree those things are not in the written Word of God.

 

[Iconoclast]

Do you no longer trust what the bible says? Don't you still hold to Sola Scriptura? You have just denied clear scripture.

How are you going to twist these words?

This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave Himself as a ransom for all, the testimony given at the proper time. 1Ti 2:3-6 NASB

To understand what Christ Jesus meant when He said "it is finished" we just have to look back a few verses. "After this, Jesus, knowing that all things had already been accomplished, to fulfill the Scripture" Joh 19:28

He had accomplished what He had come for, He had provided the way of salvation for all men.

He accomplished redemption.
It was actual...it was perfect.
There is no other way to be saved...but Jesus said it was finished.

 

[Silverhair]

He accomplished redemption.
It was actual...it was perfect.
There is no other way to be saved...but Jesus said it was finished.

Yes He did provide a way for our salvation through His death & resurrection. But I notice that you did not address the scripture that I quoted.

I agree there is no other way to be saved but by faith in Christ Jesus. Where the difference comes in is that you seem to think all the elect were saved at the cross but that is a error on your part. But it seems you have been determined to think that way.

 

[Reformed1689]

Yes He did provide a way for our salvation through His death & resurrection. But I notice that you did not address the scripture that I quoted.

I agree there is no other way to be saved but by faith in Christ Jesus. Where the difference comes in is that you seem to think all the elect were saved at the cross but that is a error on your part. But it seems you have been determined to think that way.

The elect WERE all bought at the cross.

 

[Silverhair]

The elect WERE all bought at the cross.

Then why preach? If you were one of the lucky ones that were elect, your saved if you missed the cut, your damned. Preaching the gospel will make no difference either way. So I ask again WHY PREACH?

 

[Reformed1689]

Then why preach? If you were one of the lucky ones that were elect, your saved if you missed the cut, your damned. Preaching the gospel will make no difference either way. So I ask again WHY PREACH?

How many times do we have to answer this? IT IS COMMANDED. The preaching, hearing, and belief in the Word is what God has prescribed for the election to be sealed.

 

[Iconoclast]

Then why preach? If you were one of the lucky ones that were elect, your saved if you missed the cut, your damned. Preaching the gospel will make no difference either way. So I ask again WHY PREACH?

God has commanded it as a means to effectually call all of the elect to salvation.
God elected the people and ordained the means 2tim1:9

 

[Silverhair]

How many times do we have to answer this? IT IS COMMANDED. The preaching, hearing, and belief in the Word is what God has prescribed for the election to be sealed.

But there is the fly in the ointment. Your theology as you just said requires all the elect to be bought/saved at the atonement. So why do you require the gospel to be preached. Do you think that your version of God does not know who He elected? According to your theology you even need God to give you faith. You really need to do a rethink on what your saying about the character of God.

By your logic God just picked out a group to save and then damned everyone else even though that is not what the bible says. The cognitive dissonance that I see displayed by the average Calvinist is to say the least mind boggling.

 

[Silverhair]

God has commanded it as a means to effectually call all of the elect to salvation.
God elected the people and ordained the means 2tim1:9

You quote 1Ti 1:9 but you overlook other verses such as
Eph 1:13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,

Rom 10:9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;

Joh 3:17 "For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him.
Joh 3:18 "He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Do you really think that little of God that you are willing to drag His character through the mud?

1Ti 2:3 This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior,
1Ti 2:4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

You want a God that only wants to save some while I worship the God that wants all to be saved and those that trust in His son will be. But the choice is theirs to make.

Eph_2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;

 

[Reformed1689]

By your logic God just picked out a group to save and then damned everyone else even though that is not what the bible says. The cognitive dissonance that I see displayed by the average Calvinist is to say the least mind boggling.

That is EXACTLY what the Bible says. So take it up with God, not me.

 

[Iconoclast]

You quote 1Ti 1:9 but you overlook other verses such as
Eph 1:13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,

Rom 10:9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;

Joh 3:17 "For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him.
Joh 3:18 "He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Do you really think that little of God that you are willing to drag His character through the mud?

1Ti 2:3 This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior,
1Ti 2:4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

You want a God that only wants to save some while I worship the God that wants all to be saved and those that trust in His son will be. But the choice is theirs to make.

Eph_2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;

Hello Silverhair
Why do you quote Eph.1:13 as if verses1-12do not come first?
Is it because you want to invent a man centered god?
You do not seem to like the God who has revealed Himself in Eph.1 verses1-13...so you snip out the verses that you do not care for.
When you do that how can you have a serious discussion?
Paul bursts into praise in this sentence....Eph.1:3-11is one sentence in the original language.It is to be read as one complete thought.
You should not use whiteout to remove those God centered portions.
The election of the people before time demonstrates why the end result is rebel sinners are drawn savingly to a saving belief.