OT Saints were Unregenerate yet sought God

[Van]

The tent of meeting was Outside the camp, NOT the tabernacle! The tabernacle was in the center of the camp.

The tent outside is where Mosses conducted business and, as God’s spokesperson, they new what He said came from God’s authority.

Again, “The interpretation that no one ever sought God is” proven obviously true.

If the Isreali wanted to seek God, was He not right in the midst of them?

Yet, they sought not God, but the spokesman for God.

Just as today, folks will find a preacher but not search for God.

Exodus 33:7 says the people sought God, and the above post says no one ever sought God. Who are you going to believe?

 

[AustinC]

Exodus 33:7 says the people sought God, and the above post says no one ever sought God. Who are you going to believe?

Were "the people" in covenant with God, or were they pagans?

Van, until you grasp God as a covenant making God, you will not understand.

 

[Van]

Were "the people" in covenant with God, or were they pagans?

Van, until you grasp God as a covenant making God, you will not understand.

Argumentation against other posters is a logical fallacy used by false teaches to run from truth. These people sought God, therefore the Calvinist bogus claim that no one seeks God means no one ever seeks God is unbiblical.

 

[agedman]

Exodus 33:7 says the people sought God, and the above post says no one ever sought God. Who are you going to believe?

Where were the people to seek God?

If the Hebrew was to seek God, they had to come on His terms, to His place, and bring what was necessary.

Meeting Mosses was not meeting or seeking God any more then David meeting Nathan or Saul meeting Samuel.

 

[Van]

Where were the people to seek God?

If the Hebrew was to seek God, they had to come on His terms, to His place, and bring what was necessary.

Meeting Mosses was not meeting or seeking God any more then David meeting Nathan or Saul meeting Samuel.

Scripture says they sought God an this poster they were not seeking God.

 

[Van]

Does the bible teach lost and unregenerate people sought God, some by works and some by faith? Yes

In the OT, the promise of the Messiah is there for the believers to believe in. Some of the Apostles were looking for the Messiah so the promise and not the person was known before Christ's public ministry began. And yes "heaven" was promised but the OT saints did not receive that promise, but had to wait until Christ's death.

 

[agedman]

Does the bible teach lost and unregenerate people sought God, some by works and some by faith? Yes

In the OT, the promise of the Messiah is there for the believers to believe in. Some of the Apostles were looking for the Messiah so the promise and not the person was known before Christ's public ministry began. And yes "heaven" was promised but the OT saints did not receive that promise, but had to wait until Christ's death.

Then they were not saints.

 

[Van]

Then they were not saints.

Endless nonsense. To be set apart in Abraham's bosom is to be made a saint, i.e. set apart for God.

 

[agedman]

Endless nonsense. To be set apart in Abraham's bosom is to be made a saint, i.e. set apart for God.

Then they were not unregenerate.

 

[Van]

Then they were not unregenerate.

Note the endless false claims, with no scriptural support cited.

Ask yourself why the OT Saints had to wait in Abraham's bosom to be made perfect. Ask yourself where individuals are made perfect? See Hebrews 11:40, the OT Saints were not made perfect apart from the New Covenant Saints.

1Pe 5:10
After you have suffered for a little while, the God of all grace, who called you to His eternal glory in Christ, will Himself perfect, confirm, strengthen, and establish you.

And ask yourself where are individuals made alive, when refers to regeneration? See Ephesians 2:5. Thus only when individuals are placed into Christ spiritually, do they undergo the washing of regeneration, together with Christ,and are thus made perfect. Therefore the OT saints had to be unregenerate because they were not made perfect in Christ. It is a lock for those who believe scripture means what it says.

 

[agedman]

Note the endless false claims, with no scriptural support cited.

Ask yourself why the OT Saints had to wait in Abraham's bosom to be made perfect. Ask yourself where individuals are made perfect? See Hebrews 11:40, the OT Saints were not made perfect apart from the New Covenant Saints.

1Pe 5:10
After you have suffered for a little while, the God of all grace, who called you to His eternal glory in Christ, will Himself perfect, confirm, strengthen, and establish you.

And ask yourself where are individuals made alive, when refers to regeneration? See Ephesians 2:5. Thus only when individuals are placed into Christ spiritually, do they undergo the washing of regeneration, together with Christ,and are thus made perfect. Therefore the OT saints had to be unregenerate because they were not made perfect in Christ. It is a lock for those who believe scripture means what it says.

So Moses and Elijah, both seen on the mount of transfiguration, were not perfect?

How about all those mentioned in Hebrews 11?

39These were all commended for their faith, yet they did not receive what was promised. 40God had planned something better for us, so that together with us they would be "made perfect" (Greek - reach the goal, the finished work...)​

They did not wait upon redemption, but were completed in Christ. They were not imperfect as you desire, they were incomplete.

One can be perfect, as far as one is made, but yet incomplete.

Our place in heaven is perfect, yet it is incomplete.

Your presentation of "perfect" is not following the Scriptures in being complete.

 

[Marooncat79]

We meet God in His calling

until then, we are strangers afar off and destined for hell

if God does not call, there is no salvation

 

[Van]

So Moses and Elijah, both seen on the mount of transfiguration, were not perfect?

How about all those mentioned in Hebrews 11?

39These were all commended for their faith, yet they did not receive what was promised. 40God had planned something better for us, so that together with us they would be "made perfect" (Greek - reach the goal, the finished work...)​

They did not wait upon redemption, but were completed in Christ. They were not imperfect as you desire, they were incomplete.

One can be perfect, as far as one is made, but yet incomplete.

Our place in heaven is perfect, yet it is incomplete.

Your presentation of "perfect" is not following the Scriptures in being complete.

1) "So Moses and Elijah, both seen on the mount of transfiguration, were not perfect? Note Hebrews 11:39-40 had already been cited to prove the OT Saints had to wait until after Christ's death to be made perfect. So once again, Calvinism requires it advocates to assert scripture does not mean what it says.

2) Then the claim, again not stated but implied, that the OT Saints were completed "in Christ" before Christ died, thus again claiming (indirectly) scripture does not mean what it says.

3) "They did not wait upon redemption..." Just what was intended by this nonsense? As if they were in control of the order of salvation?

4) Then the usual liberal attack on the meaning of words. The meaning of the word translated "perfect" is said to mean complete rather than perfect. I kid you not. To be raised to the state of heavenly blessedness is to be made perfect.

 

[AustinC]

Exodus 33:7 says the people sought God, and the above post says no one ever sought God. Who are you going to believe?

Are you intentionally being dishonest or are you ignorant regarding God's chosen people?
There is a significant difference between a chosen one seeking God and a pagan seeking God.

 

[Van]

Are you intentionally being dishonest or are you ignorant regarding God's chosen people?
There is a significant difference between a chosen one seeking God and a pagan seeking God.

Once again these biblical opponents claim scripture does not mean unregenerates sought God. Which is to say they were not "really seeking God."

On and on, folks, either believe your bible or claim it does not mean what it says. Exodus 33:7 refers to people God determined were seeking the Lord. Then we have:

Deu 4:29
“But from there you will seek the LORD your God, and you will find Him if you search for Him with all your heart and all your soul.

Pay no attention to the false teachers who claim no one ever seeks after God. It is a bogus interpretation of scripture.

 

[tyndale1946]

Once again these biblical opponents claim scripture does not mean unregenerates sought God. Which is to say they were not "really seeking God."

On and on, folks, either believe your bible or claim it does not mean what it says. Exodus 33:7 refers to people God determined were seeking the Lord. Then we have:

Deu 4:29
“But from there you will seek the LORD your God, and you will find Him if you search for Him with all your heart and all your soul.

Pay no attention to the false teachers who claim no one ever seeks after God. It is a bogus interpretation of scripture.

I see Van is up to his old ways again... Van you don't make yourself a child of God, God makes you one!

Jeremiah 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:

33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD; for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

And since you might say, well that is in the OT?... Surprise!!!... Its in the NT too!

Hebrews 8:7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.

8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:

9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.

10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.

12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.

13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

Van!... As long as I have been on here, you've been saying you birthed yourself?... Brother Glen

 

[AustinC]

Once again these biblical opponents claim scripture does not mean unregenerates sought God. Which is to say they were not "really seeking God."

On and on, folks, either believe your bible or claim it does not mean what it says. Exodus 33:7 refers to people God determined were seeking the Lord. Then we have:

Deu 4:29
“But from there you will seek the LORD your God, and you will find Him if you search for Him with all your heart and all your soul.

Pay no attention to the false teachers who claim no one ever seeks after God. It is a bogus interpretation of scripture.

You realize you are talking to yourself...right!?
Not one other soul at the BB believes what you believe, making you the deserted island.

My point is made. You don't understand, nor do you want to understand, God and His covenant people.

 

[Van]

I see Van is up to his old ways again... Van you don't make yourself a child of God, God makes you one!

Jeremiah 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:

33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD; for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

And since you might say, well that is in the OT?... Surprise!!!... Its in the NT too!

Hebrews 8:7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.

8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:

9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.

10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.

12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.

13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

Van!... As long as I have been on here, you've been saying you birthed yourself?... Brother Glen

Note how Calvinists cannot keep themselves from professing falsehood. Did I say or suggest we "birthed ourselves?" Nope, so why claim I did? To present falsehood. These false teaches never end.

The issue is OT people sought God, thus the claim no one ever seeks God is unbiblical nonsense. See if any of these Calvinisms actually address the issue.

 

[Van]

You realize you are talking to yourself...right!?
Not one other soul at the BB believes what you believe, making you the deserted island.

My point is made. You don't understand, nor do you want to understand, God and His covenant people.

More ignore scripture and present the fallacy of "against the person argumentation!"

OT people sought God, thus the Calvinist claim that no one ever seeks God is unbiblical nonsense.

 

[timdabap]

In another thread, the claim was made that no one seeks God unless drawn by the Father. John 6:44 says no one can come to Me (Christ) unless drawn by the Father. The question then arises, why did the OT Saints have to wait in Abraham's bosom, until the New Covenant was inaugurated? If they had "come to Me" (Christ) they would have been made perfect with the blood of Christ. So under the OT, saints came to "God" but not to the future Lamb of God which takes away the sin of the world. Thus scripture teaches people can seek God without being drawn to Jesus.

Can they seek God without God revealing Himself? Of course not. Can anyone be made perfect without being drawn to Christ? Of course not, that is why the OT Saints had to wait to be made perfect. Can people seek God through works rather than faith? Yes, Romans 9. Does that obtain salvation? Nope

So seeking God, even the God of the OT, does not require being drawn to Christ. But obtaining salvation, eternal life with God, does require not only being drawn (attracted) by the Father, but having their faith, as worthless as it may be, credited by God as righteousness.

Does God allow people to seek God and put their trust in Christ? Yes, usually, but not always. Romans 11 teaches God does harden the hearts of some people for His purpose. Ditto for Judas who was not allowed to "come to Jesus." (John 6:65).

In the OT, the promise of the Messiah is there for the believers to believe in. Some of the Apostles were looking for the Messiah so the promise and not the person was known before Christ's public ministry began. And yes "heaven" was promised but the OT saints did not receive that promise, but had to wait until Christ's death. Hebrews 11:39-40.

Did people seek God before God revealed Himself? Nope

2 Chronicles 15:4
“But in their distress they turned to the LORD God of Israel, and they sought Him, and He let them find Him.

2 Chronicles 30:18-20
For Hezekiah prayed for them, saying, “May the good LORD pardon

everyone who prepares his heart to seek God, the LORD God of his fathers, though not according to the purification rules of the sanctuary.”

So the LORD heard Hezekiah and healed the people.

Therefore we have two absolutely proved cases of OT people seeking God.

Regeneration (I believe, you don't have to if you don't want to) is by DIRECT OPERATION of the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit was in the days of Creation. Remember the Spirit of God moved over the waters ? as in Genesis 1:2 ?
And HOW did Abel knew what type of offering will be a sweet savor to, and accepted by, God ? The same way that Peter and coy recognized who they were that Jesus was conversing with on the mount of transfiguration, unless of course, there was a technology available to them that gave them an image of Moses and Elijah and these fishermen and carpenters of Jesus' time was, well, geeky.
And what did Jesus say to Peter when He blurted out, "you're the Christ, the Son of the Living God" ? Did Jesus say, "come on Peter, you guessed, but, never mind, you're right, you know".....No, He said, that His Father which is in Heaven, told him (Peter).
So, you're mistaken.
Old Testament saints were regenerate.
Their regeneration, then, as now, was by DIRECT operation of the Holy Spirit.
The real question is, "is ALL of Israel, regenerate ?", no.
Now, remember the old man at the temple they took Jesus to when He was a baby ?
How many years he has been waiting, seen babies come and go, yet recognized Jesus ?
Or how John the Baptist, as an unborn, leapt in Elizabeth's womb when Mary, with Jesus in her womb, spoke to her?
What am I saying, that the old man was regenerate, and so was John the Baptist.....in the womb ?
Yep.
Direct operation of the Holy Spirit.
No preacher, no gospel, no nothing from man.
Besides, you are referring to Israel, a NATIONAL people called by God as His people, as in, "tell Pharaoh, let MY PEOPLE go."