What is a pastor?

[Reynolds]

In a recent thread, a member posted an article by Thom Rainer giving advice to pastors for 2022. The thread led me to ponder on what exactly is the responsibility of the pastor. Thom seems to think that the pastors need to focus more on themselves, their family, and the healthy members of the church and discount the struggling members.

Do you see the parable of the shepherd leaving the 99 to look for the wayward 1 sheep to be instructive to pastors? If so, is that being done by most pastors?

Did the pastors and apostles we read about focus more on their family or more on The Church?

Lack of time in a pastors schedule was given as an excuse, in the orig thread, for not seeking out the one. Why do pastors have such a perceived time shortage? Is it because they insist on doing what is not their responsibility to do? Is it their job to manage or even be involved in church finances, business administration, day to day operations? Seems to be that is why deacons were appointed in Acts.

Why do so Manny pastors today fail to seek out and restore the wayward sheep? They do not grieve for the wayward sheep. They just blame the sheep. Sheep will be sheep; that is why they need a shepherd. Jesus said the shepherd who would let the wolf devour the sheep was nothing more than a hireling, a hired hand.

Is there any way a pastor can reconcile not seeking out his lost sheep, to the parable.

 

[Reynolds]

I will give an example. In the church we were a member in about 10 years ago, I was Deacon chair. We started losing members slowly, then rapidly. I asked pastor in Deacon meeting why they were leaving. He said he didn't know, he had not talked to any after they left. We asked him if he should be talking to them and trying to restore them. He said that he shouldn't because it wouldn't do any good. I told him the deacons would. He objected and said to just leave them alone, our trying to bring them back would only cause problems. We did it anyway. First thing we usually heard was "I have been gone x months and have not had a call, email, text, or visit from the pastor."

 

[AustinC]

In a recent thread, a member posted an article by Thom Rainer giving advice to pastors for 2022. The thread led me to ponder on what exactly is the responsibility of the pastor. Thom seems to think that the pastors need to focus more on themselves, their family, and the healthy members of the church and discount the struggling members.

Do you see the parable of the shepherd leaving the 99 to look for the wayward 1 sheep to be instructive to pastors? If so, is that being done by most pastors?

Did the pastors and apostles we read about focus more on their family or more on The Church?

Lack of time in a pastors schedule was given as an excuse, in the orig thread, for not seeking out the one. Why do pastors have such a perceived time shortage? Is it because they insist on doing what is not their responsibility to do? Is it their job to manage or even be involved in church finances, business administration, day to day operations? Seems to be that is why deacons were appointed in Acts.

Why do so Manny pastors today fail to seek out and restore the wayward sheep? They do not grieve for the wayward sheep. They just blame the sheep. Sheep will be sheep; that is why they need a shepherd. Jesus said the shepherd who would let the wolf devour the sheep was nothing more than a hireling, a hired hand.

Is there any way a pastor can reconcile not seeking out his lost sheep, to the parable.

I will make a generalization based upon personal observation with no data to back it up.
While I love my church as a member, I also see problems.
We have a membership of just under 200 with more non members attending. For this size we have three full time pastors and one full time admin assistant/worship coordinator.
When our associate pastor (who has now moved to start a church plant) came, he first required a salary negotiation before he would come. Later his buddy from seminary was added because he and the senior pastor felt the load was too much for them. Since the associates move, we have added a new associate.
For all three pastors, they consider the large portion of their job to be studying the Bible to teach and prayer for the church. The senior pastor has cited the Apostles task at the beginning of Acts as the reason for this view. As such the task of calling and shepherding is moved to the layperson, deacons, in the church. Their task is to call and check on the members. Many of the deacons are working full time jobs as well as commuting to and from work and caring for their families. The pastors generally teach in Sunday School, (senior pastor does both SS and Preaching) and on Wednesday night small groups.
Here is the rub that gets to your point. The last time any pastor has called on me and my wife was in 2011 when we were grieving a loss. (It was the former senior pastor) Since then, we only have met at church. I am one of the deacons who has a list of around 40 families to call on. I know more about them than the pastors do. I am to give a monthly report if there are any concerns.
Personally, I believe pastors are to be shepherds, which means calling on members, both those who are hurting and those who are at peace. I think my pastor has a misunderstanding of his God given role. As a deacon I have voiced my concern. There is not much more I can do without being contentious with our full time staff. Since we have a Church Council instead of Elders the concern is simply not considered in that council. For the sake of fellowship, I continue and pray God works according to His purpose, not my opinion.
So...I think seminary students come out of school thinking the pastorate is a teaching job. You study, you lecture, you go home. I think that is what they are coming out with as their primary job. Counseling is a lower level and only for those who reveal their need by calling the church. Checking the membership pulse is not in their job description. I say this with sadness.

 

[Reynolds]

I will make a generalization based upon personal observation with no data to back it up.
While I love my church as a member, I also see problems.
We have a membership of just under 200 with more non members attending. For this size we have three full time pastors and one full time admin assistant/worship coordinator.
When our associate pastor (who has now moved to start a church plant) came, he first required a salary negotiation before he would come. Later his buddy from seminary was added because he and the senior pastor felt the load was too much for them. Since the associates move, we have added a new associate.
For all three pastors, they consider the large portion of their job to be studying the Bible to teach and prayer for the church. The senior pastor has cited the Apostles task at the beginning of Acts as the reason for this view. As such the task of calling and shepherding is moved to the layperson, deacons, in the church. Their task is to call and check on the members. Many of the deacons are working full time jobs as well as commuting to and from work and caring for their families. The pastors generally teach in Sunday School, (senior pastor does both SS and Preaching) and on Wednesday night small groups.
Here is the rub that gets to your point. The last time any pastor has called on me and my wife was in 2011 when we were grieving a loss. (It was the former senior pastor) Since then, we only have met at church. I am one of the deacons who has a list of around 40 families to call on. I know more about them than the pastors do. I am to give a monthly report if there are any concerns.
Personally, I believe pastors are to be shepherds, which means calling on members, both those who are hurting and those who are at peace. I think my pastor has a misunderstanding of his God given role. As a deacon I have voiced my concern. There is not much more I can do without being contentious with our full time staff. Since we have a Church Council instead of Elders the concern is simply not considered in that council. For the sake of fellowship, I continue and pray God works according to His purpose, not my opinion.
So...I think seminary students come out of school thinking the pastorate is a teaching job. You study, you lecture, you go home. I think that is what they are coming out with as their primary job. Counseling is a lower level and only for those who reveal their need by calling the church. Checking the membership pulse is not in their job description. I say this with sadness.

We may be going to the same church.

 

[Revmitchell]

In a recent thread, a member posted an article by Thom Rainer giving advice to pastors for 2022. The thread led me to ponder on what exactly is the responsibility of the pastor. Thom seems to think that the pastors need to focus more on themselves, their family, and the healthy members of the church and discount the struggling members.

Do you see the parable of the shepherd leaving the 99 to look for the wayward 1 sheep to be instructive to pastors? If so, is that being done by most pastors?

Did the pastors and apostles we read about focus more on their family or more on The Church?

Lack of time in a pastors schedule was given as an excuse, in the orig thread, for not seeking out the one. Why do pastors have such a perceived time shortage? Is it because they insist on doing what is not their responsibility to do? Is it their job to manage or even be involved in church finances, business administration, day to day operations? Seems to be that is why deacons were appointed in Acts.

Why do so Manny pastors today fail to seek out and restore the wayward sheep? They do not grieve for the wayward sheep. They just blame the sheep. Sheep will be sheep; that is why they need a shepherd. Jesus said the shepherd who would let the wolf devour the sheep was nothing more than a hireling, a hired hand.

Is there any way a pastor can reconcile not seeking out his lost sheep, to the parable.

First, that is not why deacons were appointed. They are not administrators of the church. Nothing in scripture says otherwise. They were assigned to handle benevolence issues i.e. "serve tables". This was done under the leadership of the elders not separate from them. Deacons should serve at the direction of the pastor.

Second, the amount of time a pastor spends in prayer and in the word is tremendous alone. I did not see the video of which you speak but to me it would depend on why they have left. Members who get mad and leave or stop coming get very little of my attention. If members have issues they want to come and discuss with reason I will spend the time with them. If they want to throw a temper tantrum and storm off with their ball I have no time for that.

I have in the past worked to put out fires with tantrum members. they will run you ragged every time they want something different than you are leading. I have an open door policy. Unless I am in prayer or in a previously scheduled meeting if anyone wants to come talk to me I will stop what I am doing for them. I do not chase after disgruntled members.

Lastly, the lost sheep are just that. Lost people and have no application in this setting.

 

[Reynolds]

First, that is not why deacons were appointed. They are not administrators of the church. Nothing in scripture says otherwise. They were assigned to handle benevolence issues i.e. "serve tables". This was done under the leadership of the elders not separate from them. Deacons should serve at the direction of the pastor.

Second, the amount of time a pastor spends in prayer and in the word is tremendous alone. I did not see the video of which you speak but to me it would depend on why they have left. Members who get mad and leave or stop coming get very little of my attention. If members have issues they want to come and discuss with reason I will spend the time with them. If they want to throw a temper tantrum and storm off with their ball I have no time for that.

I have in the past worked to put out fires with tantrum members. they will run you ragged every time they want something different than you are leading. I have an open door policy. Unless I am in prayer or in a previously scheduled meeting if anyone wants to come talk to me I will stop what I am doing for them. I do not chase after disgruntled members.

Lastly, the lost sheep are just that. Lost people and have no application in this setting.

The lost sheep left the sheep fold. It was in the fold.
The deacons doing benevolence was an area of what they did. It dealt with distributing the finances. Benevolence was the bulk of the financial expenditure of the church at that time.

 

[Revmitchell]

The lost sheep left the sheep fold. It was in the fold.
The deacons doing benevolence was an area of what they did. It dealt with distributing the finances. Benevolence was the bulk of the financial expenditure of the church at that time.

You are taking the illustration too far, beyond what Jesus meant.

Luk 15:1 Now the tax collectors and sinners were all drawing near to hear him.
Luk 15:2 And the Pharisees and the scribes grumbled, saying, “This man receives sinners and eats with them.”
Luk 15:3 So he told them this parable:
Luk 15:4 “What man of you, having a hundred sheep, if he has lost one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the open country, and go after the one that is lost, until he finds it?
Luk 15:5 And when he has found it, he lays it on his shoulders, rejoicing.
Luk 15:6 And when he comes home, he calls together his friends and his neighbors, saying to them, ‘Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep that was lost.’
Luk 15:7 Just so, I tell you, there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who need no repentance

The point was to deal with the pharisees who did not understand what it meant to reach the lost. It was not about church members.

You are trying to narrow down what the deacons are called to as finances and then apply it to anything in the church that has to do with money. That is incorrect. Finances were involved with the benevolence but having deacons deal with any and every money issue in the church was not the context of Acts 6.

 

[Reynolds]

You are taking the illustration too far, beyond what Jesus meant.

Luk 15:1 Now the tax collectors and sinners were all drawing near to hear him.
Luk 15:2 And the Pharisees and the scribes grumbled, saying, “This man receives sinners and eats with them.”
Luk 15:3 So he told them this parable:
Luk 15:4 “What man of you, having a hundred sheep, if he has lost one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the open country, and go after the one that is lost, until he finds it?
Luk 15:5 And when he has found it, he lays it on his shoulders, rejoicing.
Luk 15:6 And when he comes home, he calls together his friends and his neighbors, saying to them, ‘Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep that was lost.’
Luk 15:7 Just so, I tell you, there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who need no repentance

The point was to deal with the pharisees who did not understand what it meant to reach the lost. It was not about church members.

You are trying to narrow down what the deacons are called to as finances and then apply it to anything in the church that has to do with money. That is incorrect. Finances were involved with the benevolence but having deacons deal with any and every money issue in the church was not the context of Acts 6.

Acts 6 did not deal fully with finances. From Acts 6 we can gather Deacons administered disbursement of finances. I can't prove how much. You can't prove how little.

One sinner who repents. Is that one lost person, a positional sinner; or is that a believer living in sin? Possibly both?

 

[Revmitchell]

Acts 6 did not deal fully with finances. From Acts 6 we can gather Deacons administered disbursement of finances. I can't prove how much. You can't prove how little.

Sure we can. It was designated benevolence:

"Now in these days when the disciples were increasing in number, a complaint by the Hellenists arose against the Hebrews because their widows were being neglected in the daily distribution."

Nothing more.

One sinner who repents. Is that one lost person, a positional sinner; or is that a believer living in sin? Possibly both?

Look at the context. It is a lost person. Nothing more.

 

[Reynolds]

Sure we can. It was designated benevolence:

"Now in these days when the disciples were increasing in number, a complaint by the Hellenists arose against the Hebrews because their widows were being neglected in the daily distribution."

Nothing more.



Look at the context. It is a lost person. Nothing more.

The daily distribution. That would be the daily administration of the finances. The early churches were very communal.

Assume the sheep is a lost person. You don't know the spiritual condition of every member or regular attendee of your church. When one strays, you feel no shepherdly obligation to seek them and bring them back to fellowship? Do you see yourself as a shepherd of the flock or simply a messenger? You say you don't seek to restore troublemakers. Sounds like they might be the LOST you should be seeking.

 

[Revmitchell]

The daily distribution. That would be the daily administration of the finances. The early churches were very communal.

No it wasnt that is an eisegetical approach

Assume the sheep is a lost person. You don't know the spiritual condition of every member or regular attendee of your church. When one strays, you feel no shepherdly obligation to seek them and bring them back to fellowship? Do you see yourself as a shepherd of the flock or simply a messenger? You say you don't seek to restore troublemakers. Sounds like they might be the LOST you should be seeking.

Pro_9:7 He that reproveth a scorner getteth to himself shame: and he that rebuketh a wicked man getteth himself a blot.


Did you ever notice that Jesus did not go after the Pharisees? Do you know why?

 

[Reynolds]

I grew up in a church that had about 150 people. Pastor had the heart of a Pastor. He knew everything about each one of us. Showed up at the house regularly. He was like a family member of every family in the church. Miss a couple of Sundays, he was coming by the house. He did all this and was still excellent in the Pulpit. Could preach with anyone, as the saying goes.

After him, we started going through the new type preachers. All they wanted to do was study, preach, and pray. Didn't visit. Didn't get close to the families. Never heard from them. Didn't take too long to turn the 150 avg attendance church into a 30 average attendance church.

 

[Reynolds]

No it wasnt that is an eisegetical approach



Pro_9:7 He that reproveth a scorner getteth to himself shame: and he that rebuketh a wicked man getteth himself a blot.


Did you ever notice that Jesus did not go after the Pharisees? Do you know why?

Jesus was omniscient. He knew the outcome. You nor me are omniscient.
One of the biggest church "trouble makers" I ever knew, turned out to be right when all the facts came out.

 

[Revmitchell]

Jesus was omniscient. He knew the outcome. You nor me are omniscient.
One of the biggest church "trouble makers" I ever knew, turned out to be right when all the facts came out.

Well when you become a pastor you do as you sense the Lord is leading you. As for me you do not know the spiritual battles I have been through nor do you know what God is leading me to do. Everyone has an opportunity to talk with me. If they do not I will not chase. They will run you ragged.

 

[Reynolds]

Well when you become a pastor you do as you sense the Lord is leading you. As for me you do not know the spiritual battles I have been through nor do you know what God is leading me to do. Everyone has an opportunity to talk with me. If they do not I will not chase. They will run you ragged.

Do some sheep not run their shepherd ragged? Does he abandon them or shepherd them? Does a shepherd ever tell his sheep "Sheep fold door is open, you come talk to me if you want but If not, so be it.vLet the wolf get you"? The sheep was used as an example for a reason, reason being is that they will run you ragged.
My attempt is to discuss a subject. My intent was not is not to attack you as an individual pastor.

 

[Revmitchell]

Do some sheep not run their shepherd ragged? Does he abandon them or shepherd them? Does a shepherd ever tell his sheep "My door is open, you come talk to me if you want but If not, so be it."? The sheep was used as an example for a reason, reason being is that they will run you ragged.
My attempt is to discuss a subject. My intent was not is not to attack you as an individual pastor.

See here is the thing. The sheep do not get to decide how they are ministered to. My door is open if there are issues. If they refuse that offer I have many other things to do that I cannot neglect for them. I would spend all my time neglecting many other things.

Anyway that illustration does not apply

 

[Reynolds]

See here is the thing. The sheep do not get to decide how they are ministered to. My door is open if there are issues. If they refuse that offer I have many other things to do that I cannot neglect for them. I would spend all my time neglecting many other things.

Anyway that illustration does not apply

Is the pastor a shepherd?

 

[Revmitchell]

Is the pastor a shepherd?

Doesnt make that illustration apply. I am not going to neglect other things for them. They do not get to decide how they are ministered to.

 

[Reynolds]

The Pastor as Shepherd of God's Flock - Emmanuel Community Church.

 

[Reynolds]

Doesnt make that illustration apply. I am not going to neglect other things for them. They do not get to decide how they are ministered to.

The illustration of the shepherd/sheep definitely applies. Laid out pretty well in above link. Easier than posting all the scriptures. So, the answer is to dismiss problem sheep because they take up too much time?
Does any shepherd who is not a hireling not seek the lost of his flock?
The pastor is clearly a shepherd of his flock. Jesus tells us that a true shepherd will seek out one lost from his flock.