BIBLICAL atonement

[SavedByGrace]

Bunch of ad hominem. But what you have failed to do is provide any verses stating your belief (while @agedman and I have provided plenty).

Why do you think that God left your view out of His Word? Did He fall asleep? Did He mean to put it in and simply forgot?

Just think, had God remembered to write your belief in His Word Christianity wouldn't have existed for 1500 years without the Theory.

the fact that you said that you once believed in Penal Substitution, it seems that it is you who someone has managed to delude into believing that you were wrong!

You keep on falsely saying, like Agedman, and some others, that it is not in the Bible. Yet just THREE verses in the NT, Romans 3:25; 2 Cor 5:21; and Galatians 3:13, show that you are WRONG!

Now you can prove that these verses do not teach Penal Substitution?

 

[SavedByGrace]

No!

He did not take on the wages of sin as if that caused Him death.

The Scriptures state He was victorious over sin, death and the grave, (1 Corinthians 15)

We all die, for we all still sin. We strive to live holy and sin less but to say we have no sin is to make God a liar (1 John if I recall correctly).

Just as God was satisfied with the offering of the OT, the offering of The Christ satisfied that reconciliation and redemption is now found by Grace and not by daily sacrifices and offering.

How does the Scripture state Christ died?

He was and remained in total control of the universe, No one or thing took His life from Him.

1 Peter 2:24 - "and He Himself brought our sins in His body up on the cross, so that we might die to sin and live for righteousness; by His wounds you were healed"

Galatians 3:13 - "Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us—for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who is hanged on a tree”

2 Corinthians 5:21 - "for him who did not know sin, in our behalf He did make sin, that we may become the righteousness of God in him"

 

[SavedByGrace]

Both @agedman and I have repeatedly addressed the topic

yeah, reminds me of what Jesus says about the blind leading the blind!

 

[SavedByGrace]

A T Robertson on Galatians 3:13, is right

Having become a curse for us (genomenos huper hēmōn katara). Here the graphic picture is completed. We were under (hupo) a curse, Christ became a curse over (huper) us and so between us and the overhanging curse which fell on him instead of on us. Thus he bought us out (ek) and we are free from the curse which he took on himself. This use of huper for substitution is common in the papyri and in ancient Greek as in the N.T. (Joh_11:50; 2Co_5:14.).

 

[SavedByGrace]

I agree that words have meaning. Let's look at the passages you suggest first, but my personal recommendation would be to start with Genesis 3.

Romans 3:10.

Romans 3:8–20 (NASB95): 8 And why not say (as we are slanderously reported and as some claim that we say), “Let us do evil that good may come”? Their condemnation is just.
9 What then? Are we better than they? Not at all; for we have already charged that both Jews and Greeks are all under sin;
10 as it is written,
“There is none righteous, not even one;
11 There is none who understands,
There is none who seeks for God;
12 All have turned aside, together they have become useless;
There is none who does good,
There is not even one.”
13 “Their throat is an open grave,
With their tongues they keep deceiving,”
“The poison of asps is under their lips”;
14 “Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness”;
15 “Their feet are swift to shed blood,
16 Destruction and misery are in their paths,
17 And the path of peace they have not known.”
18 “There is no fear of God before their eyes.”
19 Now we know that whatever the Law says, it speaks to those who are under the Law, so that every mouth may be closed and all the world may become accountable to God;
20 because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin.

This passages reinforces 2 important truths - firsr, those under the Law and those not under the Law stand on level ground - they are unrighteous.

Second, by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified.

Romans 3:23.

Romans 3:21–26 (NASB95): 21 But now apart from the Law the righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets,
22 even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction;
23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
24 being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus;
25 whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through faith. This was to demonstrate His righteousness, because in the forbearance of God He passed over the sins previously committed;
26 for the demonstration, I say, of His righteousness at the present time, so that He would be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

Our redemption is God's righteousness manifested apart from the Law. All have sinned and fall short of God's glory. We are justified through Christ, Whom God displayedpubliclyas a Propitiation in His blood through faith..

Romans 5:8,12.

Romans 5:6–16 (NASB95): 6 For while we were still helpless, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly.
7 For one will hardly die for a righteous man; though perhaps for the good man someone would dare even to die.
8 But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
9 Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him.
10 For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.
11 And not only this, but we also exult in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received the reconciliation.
12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned—
13 for until the Law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of the offense of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.
15 But the free gift is not like the transgression. For if by the transgression of the one the many died, much more did the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abound to the many.
16 The gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned; for on the one hand the judgment arose from one transgression resulting in condemnation, but on the other hand the free gift arose from many transgressions resulting in justification.

Romans 5:8,12

Romans 5:6–16 (NASB95): 6 For while we were still helpless, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly.
7 For one will hardly die for a righteous man; though perhaps for the good man someone would dare even to die.
8 But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
9 Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him.
10 For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.
11 And not only this, but we also exult in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received the reconciliation.
12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned—
13 for until the Law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of the offense of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.
15 But the free gift is not like the transgression. For if by the transgression of the one the many died, much more did the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abound to the many.
16 The gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned; for on the one hand the judgment arose from one transgression resulting in condemnation, but on the other hand the free gift arose from many transgressions resulting in justification.

God demonstrated His love for us by sending His Son while we were His enemy.

We are saved by Christ's life.

Sin entered the World through Adam, and death reigned.


Romans 6:23.

Romans 6:22–23 (NASB95): But now having been freed from sin and enslaved to God, you derive your benefit, resulting in sanctification, and the outcome, eternal life.
23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord

We have been freed from sin, and we gain the outcome of sanctification - eternal life.

The wages of sin is death - BUT the gift of God is eternal life in Christ.

That is how I understand those passages.

I see typically in all of your misquoting of the Bible, you OMIT any reference to Romans 3:25; 2 Cor. 5:21; Gal 3:13, etc? Is this because these Scriptures actually are AGAINST what you now believe in, and you rather IGNORE them?

 

[JonC]

It is clear to me that you two have drifted very far from a biblical understanding.
I believe when truth is set aside nothing is left but denials of the biblical faith.
Neither of you have answered the posts of everyone else on this issue.
The fact that I have to agree with RM, and SBG...should raise some eyebrows.

From what I see, all questions have been addressed.

@37818 and @canadyjd have asked legitimate questions, but most (you included) are just blowing smoke to hide the topic.

You hold a relatively new (and a minority) view. Apparently this is also a view you cannot defend, otherwise you would have asked questions, provided responses, and engaged the topic.

That said, I understand your view. @agedman and I "walked in your shoes". We held your view. But God continues to lead, continues to guide, continues to disciple. Theories of men are crutches many need to accept Scripture. But they are baggage brought in to Scripture rather than biblical teaching. Some will cast off these aids for a truer understanding. Others will cling to these philosophies.

If you need to rely on reformed RCC doctrine, that is fine. You get the essentials to a degree. But you are missing so much of God's Word, so much truth. I pray you come to see Scripture as sufficient in Christian doctrine.

If you continue your studies and are truly open to the Word of God, then I suspect He will lead you out of the shallows and into the faith Christians have confirmed for 1500 years prior to the invention of your theories. It comes with Spiritual growth.

 

[JonC]

I see typically in all of your misquoting of the Bible, you OMIT any reference to Romans 3:25; 2 Cor. 5:21; Gal 3:13, etc? Is this because these Scriptures actually are AGAINST what you now believe in, and you rather IGNORE them?

No. I just addressed the verses @37818 suggested we start with.

I do notice that you still have not provided any passage that states your belief.

 

[JonC]

It seems you couldn't spot the verse I was quoting in the very post you replied to.

If you quoted a passage stating that Christ's death appeased God, that He was punished instead of us being punished, or that Christ experienced God's wrath.....then yes, I must have missed it.

Try this -

Post the passage and put in bold the words of the text stating that Christ experienced God's wrath, that God punished Chriat instead of punishing us, or that God condemns the Righteous to acquit the guilty.

Otherwise, you don't really have anything important to say. Scripture always outweighs opinion.

 

[JonC]

I've provided several. You have simply avoided them.

You have provided quite a bit in terms of opinions, theories, what Scripture means to you, and even insults.

But what I am talking about is Scripture.

Can you provide even one passage stating Christ experienced God's wrath, Christ's death was to appease God, or that God punished Chriat instead of punishing us?

 

[JonC]

It is clear to me that you two have drifted very far from a biblical understanding.
I believe when truth is set aside nothing is left but denials of the biblical faith.
Neither of you have answered the posts of everyone else on this issue.
The fact that I have to agree with RM, and SBG...should raise some eyebrows.

We differ on how we determine doctrine. I belueve Scripture is the text if all doctrine, not teachers that teach what we want to hear or reinforce our views.

You mention the doctrine of the Trinity. Scrioture dtates that the Father is God, the Son and tge Father are One, the Spirit is the Spirit of God, and there is One God. That is enough for me.

Do that with your theory -

Please give passages, even one passage, stating Christ experienced God's wrath, Christ's death was to appease God, or that God punished Chriat instead of punishing us.

 

[JonC]

complete rubbish, like JonC and a few others on here, you are blind from seeing what the Bible says because of your theology!

Can you provide even one passage stating Christ experienced God's wrath, Christ's death was to appease God, or that God punished Chriat instead of punishing us?

 

[SavedByGrace]

Can you provide even one passage stating Christ experienced God's wrath, Christ's death was to appease God, or that God punished Chriat instead of punishing us?

"Surely he has borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted. But he was wounded FOR OUR transgressions, he was bruised FOR OUR iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was on him; and with his stripes we are healed...Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he has put him to grief: when you shall make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand" Isaiah 53:4, 5, 10)

"Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse FOR US: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangs on a tree" - Galatians 3:13

Can you not see that OUR punishmeant and sins were on Jesus Christ Who suffered FOR US? Which parts of this can you not understand? would it help if I gave the OT in Hebrew and the NT in Greek, which complete meanings?

 

[JonC]

"Surely he has borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted. But he was wounded FOR OUR transgressions, he was bruised FOR OUR iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was on him; and with his stripes we are healed...Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he has put him to grief: when you shall make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand" Isaiah 53:4, 5, 10)

"Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse FOR US: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangs on a tree" - Galatians 3:13

Can you not see that OUR punishmeant and sins were on Jesus Christ Who suffered FOR US? Which parts of this can you not understand? would it help if I gave the OT in Hebrew and the NT in Greek, which complete meanings?

I agree with those passages. Christ did suffer for our sins, He bore our sins in His body, He died for our dins, He died for us, He freed us from the bondage of sin and death, God was pleased to crush Him, by His stripes we are healed....that is not what I am asking you to provide.

I am asking if you can provide even one passage stating Christ experienced God's wrath, Christ's death was to appease God, or that God punished Chriat instead of punishing us.

 

[SavedByGrace]

I agree with those passages. Christ did suffer for our sins, He bore our sins in His body, He died for our dins, He died for us, He freed us from the bondage of sin and death, God was pleased to crush Him, by His stripes we are healed....that is not what I am asking you to provide.

I am asking if you can provide even one passage stating Christ experienced God's wrath, Christ's death was to appease God, or that God punished Chriat instead of punishing us.

Can you not see that when the Bible says that God "wounded, afflicted, bruised" Jesus Christ, it was for OUR sins. This means that Jesus suffered this ON BEHALF of US. Jesus became a curse FOR US?

Jon if God did not "wounded, afflicted, bruised" Jesus Christ, for OUR SINS, then WHOSE? Was it for Jesus' sins???

As I have already shown, I believe the the Greek ἰλαστήριος, is not talking about any APPEASEMENT, but is used for "sin-offering".

 

[Aaron]

You have provided quite a bit in terms of opinions, theories, what Scripture means to you, and even insults.

But what I am talking about is Scripture.

Can you provide even one passage stating Christ experienced God's wrath, Christ's death was to appease God, or that God punished Chriat instead of punishing us?

Again, Galatians 3:13 .

 

[Aaron]

And again, 1 Peter 2:24 .

 

[Aaron]

Insult? I don't know what you mean. You're the one confessing that Christ is not your substitute. I'm just agreeing with you.

 

[37818]

Yes. Christ died FOR us, that we may have life. This is far from meaning that He died "instead of" us.

The Greek translated "for" preceding the genitive case does in fact mean "instead."
υπερ Strong's, 'A primary preposition; " over", that is, (with the genitive case) of place, above, beyond, across, or causal, for the sake of, instead, regarding ; . . .'

 

[SavedByGrace]

This is far from meaning that He died "instead of" us

what do you make of Matthew 20:28, where Jesus Himself speaks of His Death?

"even as the Son of Man came not to be served but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom FOR many.” (also Mark 10:45)

The English FOR is the Greek preposition ἀντί, which means, "instead, in the place of, to denote exchange"

This, is what is known as SUBSTITUTION

Can you and agedman, and the other opponents to the BIBLICAL Teaching of Penal Substitution Atonement, explain what Jesus is here saying. There can be NTHER way to understand the use of the Greek ἀντί here!

 

[Eternally Grateful]

What separation and death?
If you are referring to the thinking that God abandoned the Son and turned His back on Him, then that isn't Scripturally sound.

The reason it is unsound is that such would present a breach in the unity of the trinity that cannot happen.

Lets look at this.

1. The penalty of sin is death,
2. We are born dead in adam,
3. We are made alive who were dead....

conclusion.

spiritual death (separation from God) is the penalty of sin.

Jesus, on the cross. Said it is finished (tetelestai)

Tetelestai in the Greek is actually a judicial term. It means "paid in full"

Jesus in his own words states the penalty of sin was paid in full. Yet he had not yet died physically yet. He also then let his physical body die a physical death.

While on the cross. And while getting beat, He never cried out. Not once did he cry out. Until the 9th hour. something so horrible in that moment made his scream in pain.

what was that thing that made him scream?

Your sin, My sin, The sin of the whole world was placed on his body, and in that moment, He suffered the penalty of sin (spiritual death) as he screamed, My God (father) My God (Holy Spirit) Why have you forsaken me.

Forsake in greek - enkatelipes - to abandon, to desert, to leave behind, to forsake,

so yeah.. Not only is it scripturally. but it is right there in black and white.

No, the shed blood was sprinkled, first for the High Priest and then for the people. Should either the blood or the high priest be foul, then there was no satisfaction.

Do you have any Scripture that states that "He paid the price of redemption" or is that assumed by having been taught that.

If the high priest was pure. he would not need to sacrifice an animal. Thats why once a year continually they had to repeat the same old sacrifices over and over.


The Scripture is very light on the term substitution, but more pointed toward the thinking of satisfaction.

For example, the blood was never a substitute, but a satisfaction.
The goat led into the field was not a substitute but a satisfactory demonstration of the removal of sins to be remembered no more (for the goat would live and never be used again).

Certainly, Galatians 3 declares:

Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us. For it is written: “Cursed is everyone who is hung on a tree.”​

However, what that verse does not teach is that humanity had the curse removed from them. On the contrary, the previous verses show that those who live by the law remain cursed by the law. That the key to such a curse is belief in the Lord Jesus Christ.

Many stumble at misreading this passage and therefore misapplication is generated.

Christ did not die because of the curse, He did not die because of sin, He had the authority to lay His life down and take it back up. No human has ever had such authority.




No, the shed blood was sprinkled, first for the High Priest and then for the people. Should either the blood or the high priest be foul, then there was no satisfaction.




Do you have any Scripture that states that "He paid the price of redemption" or is that assumed by having been taught that.



The Scripture is very light on the term substitution, but more pointed toward the thinking of satisfaction.

For example, the blood was never a substitute, but a satisfaction.
The goat led into the field was not a substitute but a satisfactory demonstration of the removal of sins to be remembered no more (for the goat would live and never be used again).

Certainly, Galatians 3 declares:

Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us. For it is written: “Cursed is everyone who is hung on a tree.”​

However, what that verse does not teach is that humanity had the curse removed from them. On the contrary, the previous verses show that those who live by the law remain cursed by the law. That the key to such a curse is belief in the Lord Jesus Christ.

Many stumble at misreading this passage and therefore misapplication is generated.

Christ did not die because of the curse, He did not die because of sin, He had the authority to lay His life down and take it back up. No human has ever had such authority.

Christ became a curse for us.

Subsitituion.

Christ died for us - substitution

he who knew no sin, became sin, substitution.

Without substitution there is no satisfaction.

As for Christ paying a price. He redeemed (purchased) us by his blood. that was the price.[/QUOTE]