The Bearer of Sin and Guilt

[agedman]

And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death: death on a cross.[Philippians 2:8]

Christ, when He became flesh, was subject to everything that is human, minus a sin nature. But death was also an avoidable thing, seeing He was just as much human (fully) and just as much God (fully). Seeing that humans are subject to God's wrath when they stand before Him guilty, how could Christ have not stood before His Father in the same exact manner when He was imputed His elect ppl's sins and was declared guilty?

What do the Scriptures declare.

Christ appeared in heaven as a lamb slain, and grabbed the Scroll out of God's hand.

Humans are not "subject to God's wrath" when they stand before Him. That is a mischaracterization of the display of the last judgement in the Revelation.

You ask "how could Christ have not stood before His Father in the same exact manner..." ?
Because He as the Scriptures state "yet without sin."

The wrath of God cannot fall upon those who are "in Christ" for just as was Christ we believers are not condemned. Christ was never condemned.

 

[agedman]

Yet another dishonest post. I have in fact defended PSA with scripture showing it is clear. You once again look over that and only focus on what you want to.


What you have failed and or refused to fo is actually engage the posts i have made full of scripture and showing your faulty claims. You then engage in attacks and obfuscation like the post I quoted here of yours.

Shows you dont have a case

This post is truly sad.

You have made posts 'full of Scriptures." Really, and I merely attacked you?

I suppose that I am known on the board for such behavior? Not.

If my claims are faulty, then show by Scripture by quoting them and proving that they are in error.

Certainly, others have attempted, but have not.

You are welcome too, I have no great pride that I cannot be corrected. Do you?

If it is shown that PSA is not foundationally secure in the Scriptures, do you have the character to admit such and to turn from the error it presents?

Again, why not start with proving that the Father had the authority to punish another member of the trinity.

Move on to show how one member of the trinity became unclean, yet can make the unclean, clean.

Then, of course, you will need to establish by Scripture authority that Christ separated the human side from the God side at the Cross which destroys the Hypostatic union.

 

[agedman]

The sinners' due is judgement and fiery indignation.

Certainly, but are you stating, as did the pharisees, Christ was a sinner? Does not the Scripture state He was, "yet without sin?"

The ones burned to ash on the bare ground outside the camp far away from God's abode.

Are you stating that Christ was burned outside the camp?

 

[agedman]

Psalm 22 isn't the only Messianic Psalm.

Psalms 102:9-10

No doubt that a portion of this psalm can be applicable to all who have suffered, but it is only related to the Christ in that area of being quoted in Hebrews which is used to show the unchangeable God.

“In the beginning, O Lord, You laid the foundations of the earth,
and the heavens are the work of Your hands. 11They will perish, but You remain;
they will all wear out like a garment. 12You will roll them up like a robe;
like a garment they will be changed;
but You remain the same,
and Your years will never end.”​

 

[Salty]

Six hour warning -
This thread will be closed no sooner than 9 pm EST / 6 pm PST

 

[Revmitchell]

This post is truly sad.

You have made posts 'full of Scriptures." Really, and I merely attacked you?

I suppose that I am known on the board for such behavior? Not.

If my claims are faulty, then show by Scripture by quoting them and proving that they are in error.

Certainly, others have attempted, but have not.

You are welcome too, I have no great pride that I cannot be corrected. Do you?

If it is shown that PSA is not foundationally secure in the Scriptures, do you have the character to admit such and to turn from the error it presents?

Again, why not start with proving that the Father had the authority to punish another member of the trinity.

Move on to show how one member of the trinity became unclean, yet can make the unclean, clean.

Then, of course, you will need to establish by Scripture authority that Christ separated the human side from the God side at the Cross which destroys the Hypostatic union.

More obfuscation you still haven't dealt with my post earlier

 

[agedman]

More obfuscation you still haven't dealt with my post earlier

Be sober-minded and alert. Your adversary the devil prowls around like a roaring lion, seeking someone to devour.

The end of all things is near. Therefore be clear-minded and sober, so that you can pray.

 

[agedman]

More obfuscation you still haven't dealt with my post earlier

Sucks you cleaned it up, before I could finish posting.

 

[agedman]

Im sorry but this is just not an honest answer. The reason is that you have ignored the very reason I posted it. You said "Humankind tortured and hung the Saviour, Not God," in response I posted "Surely he has borne our griefs and carried our sorrows; yet we esteemed him stricken, smitten by God, and afflicted. That verse directly contradicts your false and unbiblical claim. That verse clearly says that Jesus was smitten by God. Since Jesus was smitten by the Father it is clear that the events of the cross were the very actions God put into place. He did not simply allow it He designed it with His purpose. Smitten is representative of God's wrath.

He was also "pierced for our transgressions; he was crushed for our iniquities; upon him was the chastisement" all those things represent God's wrath. I know they do because they came from God directly. These are all references to Penal Substitutionary Atonement.

I Peter 3:18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous,.... this verse shows that the innocent suffered for the guilty. That is a direct reference to the substitutionary element of the atonement. The innocent suffered for the guilty. The entire idea of the shed blood is clear evidence of the wrath of God and the substitutionary element of the atonement. To ignore that fact is to be thick headed. It is a flat out denial of the clear and unambiguous context of scripture.

Asking where you disputed it is not a direct answer to what I posted. I never maid that claim.

Isiah 53:4 said God did it. Further, it would be impossible for the Son of God to become a curse unless God did it. Good grief. The mental gymnastics played here is astounding.

I went back a number of pages and found these two. Are they what you are referring?

These were answered over and over in the threads. Did you miss the posts?

 

[Revmitchell]

I went back a number of pages and found these two. Are they what you are referring?

These were answered over and over in the threads. Did you miss the posts?

nope, i font care what anyone else said in other posts. And no these arent the only ones on this board.

anyway if you are going to respond and engage me then do do by addressing what I actually posted. At this point it just looks like you just run away from it.

 

[agedman]

nope, i font care what anyone else said in other posts. And no these arent the only ones on this board.

anyway if you are going to respond and engage me then do do by addressing what I actually posted. At this point it just looks like you just run away from it.

I'm not running, but trying to find what I missed responding to in the huge amount of posts from the threads on this topic.

If it wasn't Isaiah, was there some other passage?

 

[agedman]

You guys keep making up weird stuff like this. I try to keep these things to myself but things like this are just ridiculous. There is nothing true about this, You havent made a biblical case for it, and it is inane at best.

Of all the posts made supporting PSA none of them have been refuted. None of them have been dealt with. All we get is "no its not". Sorry their so called refutations are not intelligent nor good enough.

Isaiah 53:4-6 ESV / 24 helpful votes
Surely he has borne our griefs and carried our sorrows; yet we esteemed him stricken, smitten by God, and afflicted.

Im sorry but this is just not an honest answer. The reason is that you have ignored the very reason I posted it. You said "Humankind tortured and hung the Saviour, Not God," in response I posted "Surely he has borne our griefs and carried our sorrows; yet we esteemed him stricken, smitten by God, and afflicted. That verse directly contradicts your false and unbiblical claim. That verse clearly says that Jesus was smitten by God. Since Jesus was smitten by the Father it is clear that the events of the cross were the very actions God put into place. He did not simply allow it He designed it with His purpose. Smitten is representative of God's wrath.

He was also "pierced for our transgressions; he was crushed for our iniquities; upon him was the chastisement" all those things represent God's wrath. I know they do because they came from God directly. These are all references to Penal Substitutionary Atonement.

I Peter 3:18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous,.... this verse shows that the innocent suffered for the guilty. That is a direct reference to the substitutionary element of the atonement. The innocent suffered for the guilty. The entire idea of the shed blood is clear evidence of the wrath of God and the substitutionary element of the atonement. To ignore that fact is to be thick headed. It is a flat out denial of the clear and unambiguous context of scripture.

Asking where you disputed it is not a direct answer to what I posted. I never maid that claim.

Isiah 53:4 said God did it. Further, it would be impossible for the Son of God to become a curse unless God did it. Good grief. The mental gymnastics played here is astounding.

Well I dont know that that is their goal but I do know that the way they are standing against it is weak at best and lacks integrity.

Another post you failed to address. All you can say is no its not. Your arguments are weak and you do not have the capability to directly answer my posts. You obfuscate and redirect but never directly answer.

i responded directly to your claim that God didn't directly cause Jesus suffering. I used scripture that clearly refutes it. Since then you have avoided it with yet another obfuscation. Until you get the courage to respond directly to mi initial response to you false and unbiblical claim then we have nothing further to discuss. I will not play your debate tactics

Good grief you are guilty of the exact thing you are accusing others of. You seriously need to seek Gid on your behavior.

Ok, here are all your posts up to this page. I don't think I missed any.

In the midst of the earlier posts on this thread, Iconoclast and I were working through some Scriptures, but I didn't see anything you posted that was not already involved in the discussion.

Did I miss something significant?

 

[Revmitchell]

Ok, here are all your posts up to this page. I don't think I missed any.

In the midst of the earlier posts on this thread, Iconoclast and I were working through some Scriptures, but I didn't see anything you posted that was not already involved in the discussion.

Did I miss something significant?

you still havent responded directly to any of them. You have spent a lot if needless time making posts like this. That said this hasnt been the only thread on this topic. My last response to you till you actually deal substantially to my posts

 

[Salty]

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