SavedByGrace
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Does God Ordain Everything That Takes Place?
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SavedByGrace
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which parts of this chapter are you referring to?
DaveXR650
Well-Known Member
You know. You say something like this. Then you explain the fall. I assume you believe God knew it was going to happen, right. There was a tree in the midst of the garden that Adam was not supposed to eat and God put it there. You tell everyone on this board how then God did not cause the fall. With your line of reasoning, the only way for God not to have caused the fall would be if he honestly did not know what Adam was going to do. What I have been trying to say is that these issues are beyond us and sometimes some Calvinists have said unwise things in trying to explain them. But no one else has any better answer, although you could clear this all up right now if you would. So do it.
Do you even read the posts?
I asked you....How did God describe the Assyrians?
It directly deals with this discussion.
They were ungodly.
Yet how did God describe them?
What function were they going to perform?
Was God in control?
Had He ordained what would take place ?
Or do you suggest God was only an observer?
Answer each of these questions in the order they were asked.
Answer each one...do not skip over it.
SavedByGrace
Well-Known Member
so if you KNOW that someone is going to commit murder. Does that mean, that because you KNEW of this crime, that you actually COMITTED it yourself?
FOREKNOWLEDGE is NOT the same as FOREORDAIN.
DaveXR650
Well-Known Member
That's the whole point. You have just repeated Jonathan Edwards argument almost word for word. Except that he would say that foreknowledge, when combined with absolute power to stop something or allow it IS in a sense "foreordaining". And as everyone can see - you cannot come up with an alternate argument. You have taken something that is impossible for us to understand and without offering any helpful explanation - blame it on Calvinism.
SavedByGrace
Well-Known Member
Lest answer this with another Bible passage. In the account of the evil king ahab, and the lying spirit, in 1 Kings 22.
"And the Lord said, ‘Who will persuade Ahab to go up, that he may fall at Ramoth Gilead?’ So one spoke in this manner, and another spoke in that manner. Then a spirit came forward and stood before the Lord, and said, ‘I will persuade him.’ The Lord said to him, ‘In what way?’ So he said, ‘I will go out and be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets.’ And the Lord said, ‘You shall persuade him, and also prevail. Go out and do so.’ Therefore look! The Lord has put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these prophets of yours, and the Lord has declared disaster against you.” (20-23)
Now, although it says here, that "The Lord has put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these prophets of yours", it does not mean that God actually did this, as God cannot lie or cause others to do so. But, because the Lord "allowed" this to happen, and He knew that it would succeed, that it is said that God "put the lying spirit".
Likewise in Isaiah 10, God uses others for His punishment, but never is He the cause of any evil!
SavedByGrace
Well-Known Member
what complete rubbish! ALLOWING something to happen, is NOT the same as ORDAINING it. You need to brush up on your English!
DaveXR650
Well-Known Member
I have admitted that some of the Calvinists, in trying to explain things like this have gone too far in making God the direct cause of all evil. I think this is especially true nowadays when everyone has to write in such a way that it can be read in 5 minutes or less. There is a reason guys like Edwards went on and on when trying to explain hard issues.
But Edwards made a point that I have never heard any non-Calvinist answer. He said that foreknowledge of something that is going to happen for sure, in the case of an all powerful being, by definition means that that being has in a sense foreordained that it happen. Call it rubbish if you want but still no answer to this has been offered.
If you cannot come up with some answer short of rubbish in capital letters then this is checkmate. And don't feel bad. Remember that Edwards was a philosopher as well as a preacher and church leader. This is philosophy. In the end, we all know the world we live in and how it works, yet we all believe God is in control. All of our explanations will fall short.
But Edwards made a point that I have never heard any non-Calvinist answer. He said that foreknowledge of something that is going to happen for sure, in the case of an all powerful being, by definition means that that being has in a sense foreordained that it happen. Call it rubbish if you want but still no answer to this has been offered.
If you cannot come up with some answer short of rubbish in capital letters then this is checkmate. And don't feel bad. Remember that Edwards was a philosopher as well as a preacher and church leader. This is philosophy. In the end, we all know the world we live in and how it works, yet we all believe God is in control. All of our explanations will fall short.
I asked 6 questions on Isaiah 10.
I did not ask about 1ki.22.
I want 6 answers to what I asked
SavedByGrace
Well-Known Member
You might want 6 answers but I am only giving what I have
You have nothing...
Which is nothing once again.
Why jump In the pool if you cannot swim.
Does the farmer concern himself with which blade of grass in the field the cattle chew upon?
No, for he has provided the field from which the cattle ma choose for themself what, when and where to eat.
God certainly ordains everything. He chooses the field, the cattle, and the amount of oversight.
Does he remove responsibility for choice of what blade of grass to chew?
Nope.
No, for he has provided the field from which the cattle ma choose for themself what, when and where to eat.
God certainly ordains everything. He chooses the field, the cattle, and the amount of oversight.
Does he remove responsibility for choice of what blade of grass to chew?
Nope.
SavedByGrace
Well-Known Member
very simply put, there is NOTHING in Isaiah 10 that supports the false teaching that God orders everything that takes places in this world. You would like it to say that, but it does not!
SavedByGrace
Well-Known Member
then He IS the author of sin. no point in trying to use fancy words to show otherwise, because it does not work!
EVERYTHING is either EVERYTHING, which includes SIN, or it is not!
Ordains is the same as CAUSE.
Ordain does not always mean cause.
It can also mean appoint, reward, charge, consecrate, legislate, induct, enjoin, command, fix (as establish and not the Texan "fix" which means that one is "about to"),
In this case, God created Lucifer, and in the capacity as the very "second in command" being. He was found (discovered) with rebellion in the planning.
God did not put that rebellion in the character of Lucifer upon the creation, but Lucifer as humans was drawn away by his own desires, by his own lust, and by his own darkening mind.
The cattle may choose to eat or not eat. The cattle may choose to do within the fenced pasture as they desire.
As God's authority, Lucifer had the ability to choose from within the appointed command structure that which he determined would glorify God. It was within that command structure that he sinned.
God ordained, certainly, but He did not have to "create evil" for evil is the antithesis of righteousness and mere rebellion is evil.
Did God create that the choice to rebel was not part of the creation?
SavedByGrace
Well-Known Member
Your last sentence is confusing to me, but that isn't your fault, it is mine.
What I showed is that how humankind may perceive this word "ordain" is in many other ways then a command. For example, enact, institute.
And so it is also used (imo) in the Scriptures.
As I showed with Lucifer that at his creation he was given the command (ordained) to the second highest position, next to God as the right hand being. He was not created evil, but evil was found out in him, and so he became the 'father of liars."
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