DGOETTP part two

[percho]

the Lamb slain <Whatever that means. The death I assume. Wonder where that will come from?) from the foundation of the world.
Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through the death he might destroy him that had the power of the death, that is, the devil;

Did the devil need to be destroyed from the foundation of the world?


What is the plan?

 

[timtofly]

Again

1) pick one or two points that you think are the strongest for which you would like a response.

And 2) support your reasoning.

And 3) Are you watching a lot of Kenneth Copeland?

And 4)Do you incorporate rattle snakes in your worship services?

You are asking the wrong questions.

Did I ask you a question?

 

[timtofly]

No one said that God tempted Adam. Adam was tempted of the Devil.

Adam was not tempted at all. You need Scripture and more sound reasoning for that to even make sense.

Adam clearly stated, "I did eat." Genesis 3:12

"and I did eat."

Adam never even said Eve tempted him. Genesis 3:12

"she gave me of the tree"

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Whatever.

No one said that God tempted Adam. Adam was tempted of the Devil.

Adam was made good. Can a good tree bring forth evil fruit? Then he was corrupted by a lie. Can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit?

Who let the Devil into the Garden?

Did adam have free will to chose to sin.

Or did he sin because God predetermined he would sin (no free will)

 

[Eternally Grateful]

I note that for being "all over the place" you have nothing in scripture, other than an attempt to look at Adam...before sin made him a slave.
Your post perfectly shows you falling on philosophy as you attempt to argue that humans would be puppets, if your philosophy isn't correct.
Are slaves, who are imprisoned in their confines, puppets? No. Do they have freedom to do whatever they will? Not at all.
The Bible tells us that we were slaves to sin. This means...no freedom. No free will.
Read Romans 6.

Can you ever respond without all the nonsense?

Yes, before Christ we are slaves to sin.

That, however, is not our discussion. and never was our discussion

Our discussion is about free will. Not our ability to stop sin.

 

[SavedByGrace]

Did adam have free will to chose to sin.

Or did he sin because God predetermined he would sin (no free will)

The Reformed WCF

Our first parents were led astray by the cunning temptation of Satan and sinned in eating the forbidden fruit. It pleased God to allow them to sin, because in his wisdom and holiness he planned to order their sin to his own glory

 

[AustinC]

Can you ever respond without all the nonsense?

Yes, before Christ we are slaves to sin.

That, however, is not our discussion. and never was our discussion

Our discussion is about free will. Not our ability to stop sin.

It is exactly our discussion. We were in slavery. No free will.
When we were made alive with Christ, our master switched from sin to Christ. We are bound to Christ.

Freedom does not exist.

It is noted that you have abandoned scripture and are now falling entirely on philosophy.

 

[DaveXR650]

The Reformed WCF

Our first parents were led astray by the cunning temptation of Satan and sinned in eating the forbidden fruit. It pleased God to allow them to sin, because in his wisdom and holiness he planned to order their sin to his own glory

You can hammer on that all you want but that does not go beyond God giving real freedom for our first parents to sin. This is nothing different in that than what you say happens when people deliberately choose not to follow God by their own free will. In that case they go to Hell and God knew that ahead of time and yet he allows this to happen.

Now for the second part, I want you to tell me why God, who in his wisdom decided to do like you want - give Adam and Eve real freedom - why is He wrong, after knowing what they are going to do (by their own free will) to rescue millions of their progeny at a huge cost of humiliation and suffering to Jesus, to use this happening for His own glory?

Jonathan Edwards, if he lived nowadays, could write a new sermon "God in the hands of angry sinners".

 

[SavedByGrace]

You can hammer on that all you want but that does not go beyond God giving real freedom for our first parents to sin. This is nothing different in that than what you say happens when people deliberately choose not to follow God by their own free will. In that case they go to Hell and God knew that ahead of time and yet he allows this to happen.

Now for the second part, I want you to tell me why God, who in his wisdom decided to do like you want - give Adam and Eve real freedom - why is He wrong, after knowing what they are going to do (by their own free will) to rescue millions of their progeny at a huge cost of humiliation and suffering to Jesus, to use this happening for His own glory?

Jonathan Edwards, if he lived nowadays, could write a new sermon "God in the hands of angry sinners".

Dude there are certain things that God has not revealed to us, like the origin of evil and why he allowed the fall

The language of the WCF is blasphemy

 

[Eternally Grateful]

It is exactly our discussion. We were in slavery. No free will.

Not true. Even a non believing gentile can do good. Scripture even calls out the jews, telling them gentiles who do not have the law. Do the law.

When we were made alive with Christ, our master switched from sin to Christ. We are bound to Christ.

Freedom does not exist.

It is noted that you have abandoned scripture and are now falling entirely on philosophy.

see there you go again. What is it with you calvinists you think you have to jab people who disagree with you?

The very fact a believer still chooses to sin counters your theory. If a child of God could only be bound to christ, they would never be able to sin again.

Nor would they be warned to to once again be enslaved to sin.


Again, Our conversation is not about sin, Its about free will.

Adam had free will. As do we all.

 

[AustinC]

Not true. Even a non believing gentile can do good. Scripture even calls out the jews, telling them gentiles who do not have the law. Do the law.



see there you go again. What is it with you calvinists you think you have to jab people who disagree with you?

The very fact a believer still chooses to sin counters your theory. If a child of God could only be bound to christ, they would never be able to sin again.

Nor would they be warned to to once again be enslaved to sin.


Again, Our conversation is not about sin, Its about free will.

Adam had free will. As do we all.

Slaves to sin can do things that others call good. No one is arguing against this. Yet, they are still slaves to sin. They have boundaries to what they can do. They are not free.
When we are made alive with Christ, our master is switched. We are not frer to do anything we will. God has boundaries on us.
Free will does not exist.

Even Adam only had the capacity to do what God allowed him to do. Adam, no matter how he might will it, could not defeat God. He was held within the confines God set for him.

Again, there is no Biblical instance ever recorded of man expressing a will that was truly free.

Now, do you intend to keep pushing your philosophy or do you intend to keep arguing from biblical silence?

 

[DaveXR650]

Dude there are certain things that God has not revealed to us, like the origin of evil and why he allowed the fall

The language of the WCF is blasphemy

Apparently he has revealed these things to you. Otherwise you wouldn't make such asinine statements, dude. Look. I've already said that some of the Calvinist writers have misspoke on occasion and there is a wide range of opinion in Calvinistic thought about just how direct God is in causing all things. But to come on here and say the WCF is blasphemy is just plain stupid.

 

[SavedByGrace]

Apparently he has revealed these things to you. Otherwise you wouldn't make such asinine statements, dude. Look. I've already said that some of the Calvinist writers have misspoke on occasion and there is a wide range of opinion in Calvinistic thought about just how direct God is in causing all things. But to come on here and say the WCF is blasphemy is just plain stupid.

You should not read into what I have said.

I quoted from the WCF and it is the language in this quote that is blasphemy as it makes God the author of sin

 

[AustinC]

You should not read into what I have said.

I quoted from the WCF and it is the language in this quote that is blasphemy as it makes God the author of sin

It doesn't, but you think it does and clearly you think your thoughts are God's thoughts, which is why you are in delusion.

 

[timtofly]

Slaves to sin can do things that others call good. No one is arguing against this. Yet, they are still slaves to sin. They have boundaries to what they can do. They are not free.
When we are made alive with Christ, our master is switched. We are not frer to do anything we will. God has boundaries on us.
Free will does not exist.

Even Adam only had the capacity to do what God allowed him to do. Adam, no matter how he might will it, could not defeat God. He was held within the confines God set for him.

Again, there is no Biblical instance ever recorded of man expressing a will that was truly free.

Now, do you intend to keep pushing your philosophy or do you intend to keep arguing from biblical silence?

This is not the definition of free will. At least prove your point with an acceptable definition of free will.

 

[DaveXR650]

I think free will is being able to do what you most want to do within the limitations you have on you in the reality of the situation you are in and within what you know as far as knowledge attained, and within the limitations of your physical body and what you have had programmed into you as far as culture, beliefs, your idea of honor, loyalty and so on. In other words, it's quite limited, often predictable by others, and totally predictable by God. The idea of a free will by late Arminian standards, a libertarian free will, is bogus. Even if it were true, it would have no value to us as humans and would be no better than chance.

 

[AustinC]

This is not the definition of free will. At least prove your point with an acceptable definition of free will.

My point is in scripture. Free will is a philosophy, I am under no compulsion to prove my point against a philosophy.
God tells us we are not free. We are either slaves to sin or slaves to righteousness. Where do you find God saying sinners are free?

 

[timtofly]

My point is in scripture. Free will is a philosophy, I am under no compulsion to prove my point against a philosophy.
God tells us we are not free. We are either slaves to sin or slaves to righteousness. Where do you find God saying sinners are free?

The definition of free will is not a philosophy. It is an appropriate definition.

Do you really feel coerced by sin?

1 Corinthians 10:12-13

"Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall. There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it."

Where is the coercion in this verse?

 

[AustinC]

The definition of free will is not a philosophy. It is an appropriate definition.

Do you really feel coerced by sin?

1 Corinthians 10:12-13

"Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall. There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it."

Where is the coercion in this verse?

Where is free will in this passage?
To whom was Paul writing, to a slave to sin or a slave to righteousness?
You seem to think I am saying men have no will. I am not. Men have strong wills. They're just not free.

 

[percho]

The Reformed WCF

Our first parents were led astray by the cunning temptation of Satan and sinned in eating the forbidden fruit. It pleased God to allow them to sin, because in his wisdom and holiness he planned to order their sin to his own glory

I kind of like, consider;
which is an earnest of our inheritance, to the redemption of the acquired possession, to the praise of His glory. Eph 1:14

Also

18,19 the eyes of your understanding being enlightened, for your knowing what is the hope of His calling, and what the riches of the glory of His inheritance in the saints, and what the exceeding greatness of His power to us who are believing, according to the working of the power of His might,

Why do some believe? --- who are believing, according to the working of the power of His might,

I say kind of like because.
I personally believe God made Adam of flesh, knowing he was going to give Adam a spiritual law (thou shall not eat of it) giving power to, the sin (transgression of that law) thus selling him under sin, to die thou dost die, for the very purpose of redeeming man from sin and death, was the means of destroying the devil, who had the power of the death, and his works through the manifestation, in the likeness of sinful flesh, of the Son of God.

Anyone wanting scriptures for each and every Word of this post I will provide.

And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man. Gen 2:23

Adam was of flesh before he sinned.