DGOETTP part two

[SavedByGrace]

Prior to 1948 there was not one.

In 1948, the nation of Israel was created by the other nations of the world and recognized by the United Nations.
Immediately the Arab nations raced to battle against the new nation. The Arabs were defeated.

Again, they tried in the 1960's, and again failed, and Israel captured all of Jerusalem, including the temple mount in which they allow the Arabs occupation with the stipulation that Israeli's may journey to the temple sight.

The Egyptian leader (Sadat) signed a peace accord with Israel, and it cost him his life.

But, Israel continues to this day, and the former President moved the American Embassy from Tel Aviv to Jerusalem, and further solidified the Nation of Israel's legal existence. That which had been denied for well over two millennia.

Prior to WWII, the Jews of all nations were very content to reside were they were.

Though they were well established, especially in the areas in which Germany conquered, by the time WWII was finished, most of those that remained searched for a new homeland. They had experienced the depravity and were unwilling to live in bondage again, and they were no longer divided by tribe but a single body.

One disappointing item. Those who were not in the concentration camps (such as freedom fighters, those that hid...) did not and do not receive the social benefits and support that those in the concentration camps and immigrated to Israel did receive from the Israeli government.

I know all of this. My point is, that if their destructin was TOTAL as you say, then ALL the Jews from their Nation would have been wiped out. The fact that they are in their Nation again, from being scattered around the world, shows that God never TOTALLY destroyed them, as you say.

 

[Aaron]

Very good and what is inclusive in that, exactly?

Where wast thou when I founded earth? Declare, if thou hast known understanding. Who placed its measures -- if thou knowest? Or who hath stretched out upon it a line? On what have its sockets been sunk? Or who hath cast its corner-stone? In the singing together of stars of morning, And all sons of God shout for joy, Job 38:4-7
For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD; and there is none else. Isa 45:18

Where was the devil, when that above was taking place.

We're not told, but probably in darkness. Like the angels, darkness was not part of Creation. It was there in the beginning.

When did the following take place?

Rev 12:7-9 And there came war in the heaven; Michael and his messengers did war against the dragon, and the dragon did war, and his messengers, and they did not prevail, nor was their place found any more in the heaven; and the great dragon was cast forth -- the old serpent, who is called 'Devil,' and 'the Adversary,' who is leading astray the whole world -- he was cast forth to the earth, and his messengers were cast forth with him.
1 John 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

Gen 1:2 the earth hath existed waste and void, and darkness is on the face of the deep, and the Spirit of God fluttering on the face of the waters,

One cannot read Revelation like it is historical narrative. It is a revelation of Jesus Christ in symbols. It is utterly ridiculous to imagine a literal war in heaven between God's forces and the forces of the Devil. Revelation 12:7-9 is a picture of Satan's persecution of the church. Michael and His angels are the church and her Head. They overcame the dragon by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death. Revelation 12:11

Revelation 12:7-9 is still taking place.

Genesis 1:2 does not describe an earth wasted by the casting out of the Devil and his angels. There was no form to the earth (neither was there to the heavens for that matter). There was only the Deep, the waters, the raw materials out of which were formed the heavens and the earth.

Had it already been foreordained the Christ would shed his precious blood for redemption. Does that mean the Christ would die the death? Die? Would that require the sin? How would the Christ be manifested in order to die? What would be needed to destroy the works of the devil and even the devil himself who had the power of the death?

Man made in the image of his Creator, woman taken from the man so there would be seed of the woman, the sin in the world (Kosmos) resulting in the death?

What was, the old serpent, doing in the garden, the God planted and where the God placed the man He had created in his image?

Why, the seed of the woman?

and him who was made some little less than messengers we see -- Jesus -- because of the suffering of the death, From Heb 2:9
2:14 Seeing, then, the children have partaken of flesh and blood, he himself also in like manner did take part of the same, that through the death he might destroy him having the power of the death -- that is, the devil --
Remember Jesus Christ, raised out of the dead, of the seed of David, according to my good news, 2 Tim 2:8
and to Abraham were the promises spoken, and to his seed; He doth not say, 'And to seeds,' as of many, but as of one, 'And to thy seed,' which is Christ; Gal 3:16

Had it already been foreordained that Christ would shed His blood for Redemption? Yes, of course. He is the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. Revelation 13:8 . But it is not a necessity brought upon the earth by desolation as the result of an angelic war fought somewhere in the universe. Things were not as you imagine.

But we know from Creation, that one of the duties of a father is to find a bride for his son. God brought all the animals to Adam, the son of God ( Luke 3:38 ) but there was not a suitable mate. So He put Adam to sleep, and opened his side, and took a bride out of him, and presented her to him, not having spot or wrinkle. (Death and sickness had not yet entered the world.)

The reason for Creation was to find a bride for the Son of the Father, and just as the picture, a bride was taken out of Christ Himself, that He may present her to Himself, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing.

 

[Aaron]

???

YOU gave it away, post #23.

You know no one ever reads those references!

 

[Eternally Grateful]

So that's a no. It is not possible that it would be different. Ergo, it was part of His plan.

So Evil was part of Gods plan?

Another question: How far back in eternity did God know this?

long before any aspect of creation, even the angels.

Did God create evil so he could come in as the superhero and save the day?

Or did God allow creation to go forward. Knowing that evil will come (as a result of free will) and created a plan to save us in spite of ourselves.

 

[SavedByGrace]

As I have aleady said about the Westminster Confession of Faith, on the Fall:

Our first parents were led astray by the cunning temptation of Satan and sinned in eating the forbidden fruit. It pleased God to allow them to sin, because in his wisdom and holiness he planned to order their sin to his own glory

As with the other NONSENSE that "reformed theology", teaches, here we have the God of the Bible, PLAN and ORDER, SIN, through the Fall of Adam and Eve, FOR HIS GLORY!

So, we have God Who PLANS and ORDERS the Fall, and then when Adam and Eve do disobey and sin againt God, for doing what HE PLANNED and ORDERED, that He is angry with them, and not only punishes them, but the entire human race! This is NUTS!!! It makes God not knowing what He is doing, and shows Him to contradict Himself!

In Genesis chapter 6 God is so angry with the wickedness of humans, which was part of His PLAN and ORDER in the first place, He then decides to destroy all humans who were just carrying out HIS PLANS!!!

This is SO AGAINST what the Bible teaches, that you have to ask if those responsible for this "Confession", were actually SANE, when they wrote this CRAZY stuff!

 

[Aaron]

So, we have God Who PLANS and ORDERS the Fall, and then when Adam and Eve do disobey and sin againt God, for doing what HE PLANNED and ORDERED, that He is angry with them, and not only punishes them, but the entire human race! This is NUTS!!! It makes God not knowing what He is doing, and shows Him to contradict Himself!

Ever and anon the cry of the noncalvinist is, why doth He yet find fault? For who hath resisted His will?

 

[Aaron]

So Evil was part of Gods plan?

Absolutely.

 

[Aaron]

Did God create evil so he could come in as the superhero and save the day?

Are you calling God the author of evil?

 

[SavedByGrace]

Absolutely.

ABSOLUTE RUBBISH!!!

 

[SavedByGrace]

Ever and anon the cry of the noncalvinist is, why doth He yet find fault? For who hath resisted His will?

not fault with GOD, but the UNBIBLICAL RUBBISH the "reformed" teach!

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Absolutely.

Ah, So we can blame God for all this evil.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Are you calling God the author of evil?

sounds like to me you are.

God did not create evil. nor endorse it, nor condone it.

Does he allow it? Well, when you give people free will. that's a consequence of free will beings.. they may rebel against you and create evil themselves.

 

[SavedByGrace]

Ah, So we can blame God for all this evil.

God has ORDAINED all things that come to pass, is the nonsense that passes as "reformed theology". Then to get out of the "confessions" using such unbiblical language, that makes God the AUTHOR of sins, they try to redefine what ORDAIN means!

With this complete RUBBISH as their "theology", it means, that when people murder, commit adultery, abortions, fornicate, etc, etc, they are only doing what God has ORDERED in the first place! To make matters worse, God then punishes those who do such things, even though they are OBEYING His own ORDERS!!!

This is the UTTER MADNESS that "reformed theology" is!

 

[AustinC]

sounds like to me you are.

God did not create evil. nor endorse it, nor condone it.

Does he allow it? Well, when you give people free will. that's a consequence of free will beings.. they may rebel against you and create evil themselves.

You keep referencing human free will when it is never explicitly or implicitly taught in the Bible. Instead, God tells us we are either a slave to sin or a slave to righteousness. Freedom from a master is not in the cards for any human being.

So, your concept of "free will" is purely a philosophy of the sinful nature of man whereby you rebel against God's chains and imagine you are free from all. Thus you establish your SELF as the autonomous ruler over all things.

Until you can see the evil of your philosophy, you will never grasp the full joy of God's gracious saving work on your behalf. Instead, you will always be thinking, "thanks God, but I can take it from here."

 

[AustinC]

God has ORDAINED all things that come to pass, is the nonsense that passes as "reformed theology". Then to get out of the "confessions" using such unbiblical language, that makes God the AUTHOR of sins, they try to redefine what ORDAIN means!

With this complete RUBBISH as their "theology", it means, that when people murder, commit adultery, abortions, fornicate, etc, etc, they are only doing what God has ORDERED in the first place! To make matters worse, God then punishes those who do such things, even though they are OBEYING His own ORDERS!!!

This is the UTTER MADNESS that "reformed theology" is!

And here we see the argument that there are rogue molecules of which God is ignorant. In this post we see God being diminished and being declared not to be Sovereign at all. Instead, God is declared to be weak and ignorant.

Let me ask this: Who, here, wants a wimpy God as their Lord and King?

If you do, then you want the one that sbg imagines as his savior.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

You keep referencing human free will when it is never explicitly or implicitly taught in the Bible.

Yeah actually it is. But if you do not want to see it. You will never see it.

Instead, God tells us we are either a slave to sin or a slave to righteousness. Freedom from a master is not in the cards for any human being.

A lost soul is a slave to sin, It does not mean he can not see his desperation and his situation. and through the word. Gods creation. The HS and Gods people, be drawn to the truth of the gospel. As men of all ages has been drawn since adam forst of his own free will chose to rebel against God and say no to his command.

So, your concept of "free will" is purely a philosophy of the sinful nature of man whereby you rebel against God's chains and imagine you are free from all. Thus you establish your SELF as the autonomous ruler over all things.

Until you can see the evil of your philosophy, you will never grasp the full joy of God's gracious saving work on your behalf. Instead, you will always be thinking, "thanks God, but I can take it from here."

the evil of my philosophy? My friend you stuck on fatalism, and stuck on a doctrine. And not stuck on God and what he says about himself.

I can;t see the joy of Gods saving work? lol. I have been enjoying it for 40 years now. Not because of something great in me, or because I saved myself. But because I became bancrupt in spirit and called out on the name of God.

You seem to think your special. God chose you so he enlightened you. But those he did not chose, he does not even give a chance. This is not found in scripture my friend.

so if you want to talk about the word. Lets talk. But your sarcastic. proud strawman statements. Leave them behind, To many a calvinist discussion have gone of the deep end because of people pride and refusal to talk like grown adults.

 

[timtofly]

There was law: Genesis 2:17

As to the rest, no God is not the author of sin.

Adam was made good, and would live forever if obedient, but he was not made incorruptible or immortal. If God suffered violence in the Garden, Adam could have been killed. But there was a liar in the Garden, and Adam was corrupted, and brought forth evil fruit, disobedience.

Yes there was a law, and Paul said it was different than other laws.

Of course Adam was a son of God in the full image of God prior to a direct disobedient act.

Adam was not some protype of things to come. Adam was placed as the chief caretaker of Paradise along with all of his offspring. It would have had room to hold billions.

Adam was not "corrupted". Adam made a willful conscious direct act of disobedience to God. Adam was given one law. That law was only for Adam. Adam was the only one who could deliberately break that law.

Of course there was a liar in the Garden. You seem to think what he was saying was true. This mortal/immortal gibberish comes directly from the thoughts of Satan. Adam was not "made good". Adam was made complete and mature. The full image of God, with a permanent incorruptible physical body. He had on the "robe of white" which is symbolic of having one's spirit on over the physical body. It was not a human made garment. It was God made. Adam lost this covering along with physically dying from an incorruptible to a corruptible body. That is the death, both he and Eve died. That is why they immediately found themselves naked.

The reverse change happens for the redeemed, who enter life when the soul leaves the corruptible tent, for the permanent incorruptible physical body.

You're a little confused and seem to be a bit superstitious. Man, that is Adam and Eve, was made on the 6th day. Not sure if you're referencing angels or the nephilim with term 'sons of God.' Neither are applicable.

Angels are spirits. Created, yes, but Genesis is not the narrative of their creation.

Yes angels are symbolically represented on the 4th day as the stars. Angels are the physical stars. The task of angels in the firmament are to be those stars.

Eve was not created on the 6th day. The sons of God were created on the 6th day. Any one who refuses to interpret Genesis 2 as being after the 7th Day, is confused. God clearly planted the Garden after the Sabbath. The Sabbath was also not an evening and a morning. The Day of the Lord is defined in 2 Peter 3:8. In Genesis 2 the day of the Lord is singular, while the generations of life on earth is plural. There were not dozens of generations in a 24 hour period. The time given for many generations between the 6th day and the time God returned to plant the Garden would be a logical 1,000 year period.

There was no sin and no death for 1,000 years. In fact Genesis 2 declares no wild seeds "died" to create new plants. No plants died, nor were eaten. No one even planted domesticated crops which would be also death and recycled life of plants. When God said there was no death, God literally meant no death period. The sons of God and all animals and insects lived on the seeds and fruit, and literally nothing grew from one seed during that whole 1,000 years. And many generations of life happened and spread across the earth.

Satan also had that time to sit and think and he decided he could do better than God with this creation on earth. Obviously God gave him some room to develop this plan, even putting one third of the angels in the pit for 6,000 years as some would call, "collateral damage". All of Seth's offspring also affected, and that was passed down through Noah and his 3 sons to all humankind on earth since the Flood.

Obviously incorruptible does not mean indestructible. It means without sin and decay though. But if death is the last enemy, how can anything die, if there is no death? Seems no one has an imagination capable of defining what it means to not die. So much so people have been confused about Genesis 2 thinking there was a totally different creation format given.

"These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the Lord God made the earth and the heavens, And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew: for the Lord God had not caused it to rain upon the earth, and there was not a man to till the ground. But there went up a mist from the earth, and watered the whole face of the ground. And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
And the Lord God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed...."

Many claim this is just a repeat creation formula. It is not. It is God explaining what happened during the 1,000 year Sabbath Day. Then God explains what He did for one son of God whom He had created 1,000 years prior. The Garden was planted after the Sabbath Day.

God explained how creation would work at the end of the first chapter:

"And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat. And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so."

So the only food was the seeds, herbs, and fruit. That is why in the second chapter God says no seeds sprang up from the ground neither wild nor domesticated. This was the way of life for many generations, a long period of time. Then after the Sabbath, God came and planted a garden and put Adam in that Garden. That is when Adam's 130 years started until Seth was born. If one counted the Sabbath day, Adam actually lived 1930 years. Adam lived 900 years as a sinner. He lived 1,030 years as a son of God.

But, no, Genesis does not say how long the Sabbath Day was. That takes studying the whole of Scripture, along with the time frame since Adam until now. I am not sure why no one can see that God planted the Garden after the Sabbath Day, though. Genesis 2 is not a repeat of Genesis 1. The only thought from Genesis 1, that God clarifies is more detail of how the sons of God were created.

"And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul."

"So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them."

Not only was Adam and all sons of God created in God's image, but came from the dust of the ground and with God's breath, became a living soul.

 

[AustinC]

Yeah actually it is. But if you do not want to see it. You will never see it.


A lost soul is a slave to sin, It does not mean he can not see his desperation and his situation. and through the word. Gods creation. The HS and Gods people, be drawn to the truth of the gospel. As men of all ages has been drawn since adam forst of his own free will chose to rebel against God and say no to his command.



the evil of my philosophy? My friend you stuck on fatalism, and stuck on a doctrine. And not stuck on God and what he says about himself.

I can;t see the joy of Gods saving work? lol. I have been enjoying it for 40 years now. Not because of something great in me, or because I saved myself. But because I became bancrupt in spirit and called out on the name of God.

You seem to think your special. God chose you so he enlightened you. But those he did not chose, he does not even give a chance. This is not found in scripture my friend.

so if you want to talk about the word. Lets talk. But your sarcastic. proud strawman statements. Leave them behind, To many a calvinist discussion have gone of the deep end because of people pride and refusal to talk like grown adults.

No.. it isn't.
For example, the last chapter of Joshua is not a free will chapter. In fact, Joshua answers the question of "choose who you will serve" with the answer of "you will fail miserably."

The issue is not that I won't see it. The issue is that you cannot produce it from scripture. You produce it from supposition and then look for any verse (with no regard for context) you can find that you think might be a prooftext.

So, the reality is that free will is not taught by God, yet here you are claiming otherwise and then producing nothing in support of your empty assertion.

 

[timtofly]

this is horrific just thinking about it

It was not part of Gods plan that sin should enter. But he KNEW it would enter. and the cross was Gods response to it..

Why does one have to be the reason for the other?

God claims that the Lamb slain was from the foundation. So creation and the point of a Lamb slain all took place at the same time. The creation of Satan was just as much a part of the whole package as any other part.

The only thing planted much later in the Garden was the tree itself and the command God gave in regards to that tree. The tree and the knowledge of the law, was not a fact at the beginning. Yes, God knew in advance about the tree.

If we compared Adam with Job, did Satan have a say in a tree being planted? We are not told, but obviously Satan provided the thought behind Job's testing. Why did God not tell us that it was Satan's idea to plant the tree? For one, the tree represented God's law, both then and future. We know that the law cannot save, but is a way to teach us what sin is. Obviously disobeying that law, was the very act that allowed sin to enter the world. Satan never introduced any laws in the book of Job. Yet Satan still could have hinted of a tree called the knowledge of good and evil. God still ordained the law: not to eat of the fruit. A law is a decree, an ordained phenomenon. But to add the word pleasure to the point, seems like circular reasoning of why the Cross was necessary. Thus nothing to do at all with the Law God did decree.

 

[timtofly]

If He knew it would happen, was it possible that it wouldn't?

There have been many points to history that never happened. God also knows what would never happen as well.