Biblical Atonement (Part 4....but who's counting)

[JonC]

What is written or taught in the bible was written before Aquinas, Augustine, or anyone else you deflect to.
I do not employ your substitute words and definitions.
I did not use the word appease.
I use the biblical term...propitiation.
Turning away the wrath of God.
PSA.is the scriptural teaching of the Covenant death Jesus accomplished.
You make claims of what you used to believe .
I and others see no evidence of your claims to holding one belief or another. You can save such posts as no one believes them to be true .
You advocate reading the bible....without understanding what you read. You could not help the Eunuch in Acts 8, so it is good God sent Philip in that day.
You would not cause the Eunuch to gain the sense of the words...you would just tell him keep reading...no need to connect the scriptural dots at all....just repeat partial sentences without explanation.

You are missing the point here.

The text of Scripture does not teach, present, or state Penal Substitution Theory. It is foreign to God's Word and foreign to the Christian faith until the Reformation.

I could help the Eunich by walking him through Scripture (through what is written) and explaining that it applies to Christ (which isin the NT Scripture).

What you would do is rely on reformed RCC doctrine that is not found in the Bible. You would rely on "progressive revelation" which would be post-Reformation teachers that tickle your ears.

How can you test Penal Substitution Theory against Scripture and still hold it? You can't...not any more than the RCC can.

What you have done is started with humanistic secular philosophy and then sought out Scripture for support. Your belief, here, is paganism read into the Bible.

Try reading Scripture without the Theory. Set it aside and at least pretend God gave His perfect and complete Word in the text of Scripture.

If you are able to set aside your own worldly wisdom it will be impossible for you to affirm Penal Substitution Theory. The question is whether you are able. You have a lot invested in the works of Calvininists. Are you even open to seek out God's Word?

 

[37818]

The fact is, the denials of Christ's Atonement being a penal substitution are all post Apostolic. And is not to be found in the written word of God.

 

[JonC]

The fact is, the denials of Christ's Atonement being a penal substitution are all post Apostolic. And is not to be found in the written word of God.

Of course it is post Apostolic. The Theory was not around for tge first 1500 years of the church to be denied.

The Apostolic Church held firmly to Scripture and the teachings of the Apostles....none of which contained Penal Substitution Theory (which is why you have been unable to prove the Theory correct via Scripture).

It is reformed RCC doctrine. It assigns to the OT Law a pagan sacrifice system. It relies on a philosophy that had been deemed heresy (that Christ's death appeased God).

 

[agedman]

The fact is, the denials of Christ's Atonement being a penal substitution are all post Apostolic. And is not to be found in the written word of God.

Neither @JonC nor I deny the Lord suffered. That is penal suffering.

What I read in the Scriptures is that “Christ died for us”. (1 Timothy 5, Romans 5, 1 Corinthians 15, …)

Christ died on behalf of, for the sake of, … us.

I have read not a single verse that Christ suffered God’s wrath for us.


If I missed one, then surely @Martin Marprelate, @Iconoclast, @Aaron, you, or someone would have posted it.


But not to be found folks spend time in philosophy.

The Lord Jesus Christ was “God manifested in the Flesh” (1 Timothy 3).

John states, “18No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is Himself God and is at the Father’s side, has made Him known.”

You want to talk philosophy?

Then explain how God poured out wrath upon God?

 

[agedman]

@Aaron

In the last thread on this topic you mentioned that I should not start with my own notions. But that is exactly what folks that cling to PSA theory do.

Just as the testimony of @JonC and I remarked, we were both presenting PSA thinking as factual, and defendable, until we both were confronted with the fact that the scheme was NOT found to be Scriptural without adding and redirecting the passages to mean what they do not.

A simple passage, "Christ died for us." I took that to include that Christ suffered wrath in my stead, that He bore the wrath of God that I may not. However, that isn't the teaching of the Scriptures both in English and in the original. Not even close. And that is just one of the many.

When it came down to a choice, it was to accept the teaching of Scripture or that of philosophical presentation.

I chose Scriptures.

That is why throughout these many posts and threads I have implored someone to find SOME Scripture that clearly teaches that God poured out His wrath upon the Son.

I really do seek to find such a Scripture, but have not, the searching has been in vain.

 

[37818]

Of course it is post Apostolic. The Theory was not around for tge first 1500 years of the church to be denied.

The Apostolic Church held firmly to Scripture and the teachings of the Apostles....none of which contained Penal Substitution Theory (which is why you have been unable to prove the Theory correct via Scripture).

It is reformed RCC doctrine. It assigns to the OT Law a pagan sacrifice system. It relies on a philosophy that had been deemed heresy (that Christ's death appeased God).

The Atonement done by Christ is a penal substitution. It's denials are what are post Apostolic.
If you disagree, which I do understand that you do. Then simply present the Biblical Atonement of Christ. What it actually is.

 

[37818]

Then explain how God poured out wrath upon God?

That is unBiblical nonsense.

 

[agedman]

The Atonement done by Christ is a penal substitution. It's denials are what are post Apostolic.
If you disagree, which I do understand that you do. Then simply present the Biblical Atonement of Christ. What it actually is.

Peter states, "Christ also suffered (Greek - experienced ill treatment....) (Peter 3) and this is not denied.

Who caused the suffering? Humans - as Peter states;

22Men of Israel, listen to this message: Jesus of Nazareth was a man certified by God to you by miracles, wonders, and signs, which God did among you through Him, as you yourselves know. 23He was delivered up by God’s set plan and foreknowledge, and you, by the hands of the lawless, put Him to death by nailing Him to the cross. 24But God raised Him from the dead, releasing Him from the agony of death, because it was impossible for Him to be held in its clutches.
​

The Atonement of Christ is that Christ suffered and such suffering is ALSO experienced by believers, and even unto death, whether nailed to a cross or not, as Paul states, "We are all sheep lead to the slaughter house." (my paraphrased version)

THE DIFFERENCE is "God raised Him from the dead..." And therefore, as the Redeemer, He also does give unto us eternal life that we not taste of death but are passed from the physical ceasing of vitality into the new creation.

That is Biblical atonement by Christ.

This is the same message of atonement that Paul preached:

3For I delivered to you in the foremost what also I received: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4and that He was buried, and that He was raised the third day according to the Scriptures, 5and that He appeared to Cephas, then to the Twelve. 6Thereafter He appeared to more than five hundred brothers at once, the greater part of whom remain until now, although some have fallen asleep. 7Then He appeared to James, then to all the apostles. 8And last of all, He appeared also to me, as to one of untimely birth.

9For I am the least of the apostles, who am not fit to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God. 10But by the grace of God I am what I am, and His grace toward me has not been void. Rather, I toiled more abundantly than all of them, yet not I, but the grace of God that was with me. 11Therefore whether it was I or they, thus we preach, and thus you believed.​

Paul did not present that Christ suffered the wrath of God poured out upon Him for our atonement.

 

[agedman]

That is unBiblical nonsense.

I agree!!!!

That is the point though of the unbiblical PSA Theory.

It is the presentation of the PSA thinking that God poured out His wrath upon the Son, and therefore, the Son took what was our punishment as our substitute by suffering that Wrath from God. That Justice demanded wrath, therefore, Justice had to be satisfied by just payment due.

It is totally not found in Scriptures.

 

[agedman]

That is unBiblical nonsense.

Again, I agree.

Yet that is precisely the presentation of the PSA theory.

It is philosophy at best and unbiblical to the core.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

I have read not a single verse that Christ suffered God’s wrath for us.


If I missed one, then surely @Martin Marprelate, @Iconoclast, @Aaron, you, or someone would have posted it.

I have posted three, but you and @JonC have avoided them like the proverbial plague.

 

[JonC]

The Atonement done by Christ is a penal substitution. It's denials are what are post Apostolic.
If you disagree, which I do understand that you do. Then simply present the Biblical Atonement of Christ. What it actually is.

The Cross is prior to the Apostolic Church. But nobody believed Penal Substitution Theory until the Reformation.

I have presented the biblical atonement.

First, the word "atonement" means "reconciliation". Penal Substitution Theorists redefine it to something akin to pagan sacrifices.

Scripture tells us of the OT sacrifice system under the Law and how during this time God, in His forbearance, passed over their sins. Scripture tells us of the faith of the OT faithful that was counted as righteousness.

Scripture tells of Adam's transgression and how sin and death entered the world. And we are told of the bondage of sin and death that enslaved man. Scripture tells us that it is appointed man once to die and then the Judgment.

Scripture tells us of the "Last Adam", Jesus Christ, who became flesh, shared our infirmity, became a curse for us, was made sin for us, bore our sins in His body, suffered and died under the evil of this world and by those to whom He came.

Scripture tells us this was the will of God, He was pleased to crush Him, that this was His predetermined plan. Also, Christ lay down His own life in obedience and by His own accord.

Scripture tells us that God vindicated Christ, raised Him, gave Him a name above every name. Scripture tells us all judgment has been given the Son.

Scripture tells us that it is an abomination to God to substitute the righteous for the guilty. Scripture tells us that our salvation is the righteousness of God manifested apart from the law.

Scripture tells us that Christ is the Propitiation for not only our sins but the sins of the whole world. The Cross was God reconciling man to Himself and now we have the ministry of reconciliation, urging men to be reconciled to God. Through Christ's death man was reconciled, and through His life men are saved.

Scripture tells us that we can not earn our salvation, but that we must be reborn, made new creations in Christ, we must die to the flesh and all flesh must perish. We must be born of the Spirit, in Christ, in Whom there is no condemnation.

But Scripture does NOT say that Christ's death was to appease God or God's wrath. Scripture does NOT say that Christ suffered God's wrath. Scripture does NOT say that God can only forgive after punishing sin. Scripture does NOT say the only way to forgive men is via punishment. Scripture does NOT say Christ died instead of us.

 

[JonC]

I have posted three, but you and @JonC have avoided them like the proverbial plague.

Ypu have not posted any passages teaching Christ experienced God's wrath instead of us. You just post passages and then secular philosophy as if it were in those passages.

What passage do you believe we have avoided?

 

[agedman]

I have posted three, but you and @JonC have avoided them like the proverbial plague.

Martin, I responded to all three.

I did not avoid them. I presented them in context and responded appropriately by showing how they did not support that which you desired.

Not that you might have noticed, though, and I completely understand.

 

[agedman]

@Martin Marprelate

I looked back at the last thread and tried to find them, and didn't. It must have been two threads ago.

Let me know if the Scriptures you presented and the response was in some manner incomplete.

 

[JonC]

I do not know of any passages we missed, but there could be some. Anyway, it was not avoidance.

@Martin Marprelate , please post those three passages that say Christ experienced God's wrath instead of us. If there are any such passages then I will, with gratitude for your correction, change my view to reflect what is written in God's Word.

As it stands, I have not seen any such passages and am starting to suspect you know there aren't any but refuse to acknowledge this as it would be a lot of work on your part to move closer to a biblical understanding (it would be a lot of work for you to move from a secular world view....and a lot of work for you to adopt a Christian view of the cross....but.... it is worth it even if you - like I did - have to swallow your pride).

 

[37818]

The Cross is prior to the Apostolic Church. But nobody believed Penal Substitution Theory until the Reformation.

I have presented the biblical atonement.

First, the word "atonement" means "reconciliation". Penal Substitution Theorists redefine it to something akin to pagan sacrifices.

Scripture tells us of the OT sacrifice system under the Law and how during this time God, in His forbearance, passed over their sins. Scripture tells us of the faith of the OT faithful that was counted as righteousness.

Scripture tells of Adam's transgression and how sin and death entered the world. And we are told of the bondage of sin and death that enslaved man. Scripture tells us that it is appointed man once to die and then the Judgment.

Scripture tells us of the "Last Adam", Jesus Christ, who became flesh, shared our infirmity, became a curse for us, was made sin for us, bore our sins in His body, suffered and died under the evil of this world and by those to whom He came.

Scripture tells us this was the will of God, He was pleased to crush Him, that this was His predetermined plan. Also, Christ lay down His own life in obedience and by His own accord.

Scripture tells us that God vindicated Christ, raised Him, gave Him a name above every name. Scripture tells us all judgment has been given the Son.

Scripture tells us that it is an abomination to God to substitute the righteous for the guilty. Scripture tells us that our salvation is the righteousness of God manifested apart from the law.

Scripture tells us that Christ is the Propitiation for not only our sins but the sins of the whole world. The Cross was God reconciling man to Himself and now we have the ministry of reconciliation, urging men to be reconciled to God. Through Christ's death man was reconciled, and through His life men are saved.

Scripture tells us that we can not earn our salvation, but that we must be reborn, made new creations in Christ, we must die to the flesh and all flesh must perish. We must be born of the Spirit, in Christ, in Whom there is no condemnation.

But Scripture does NOT say that Christ's death was to appease God or God's wrath. Scripture does NOT say that Christ suffered God's wrath. Scripture does NOT say that God can only forgive after punishing sin. Scripture does NOT say the only way to forgive men is via punishment. Scripture does NOT say Christ died instead of us.

Theory. And not the simple answer from Scripture.

 

[agedman]

Perhaps a huge problem is the concept of sacrifice in the Western world in contrast to that of the times of the Hebrews and early believers of the first century.

The Scriptures do not demonstrate any mistreatment given that sacrificed. Rather, a thorough inspection was done to validate the quality and purity of the sacrifice.

That Christ was both pure and innocent is validated in the Scriptures.

That Christ remained without sin is validated in the Scriptures.

That which is NOT validated in Scriptures is that God poured His wrath out upon the pure and innocent Son.

 

[agedman]

Theory. And not the simple answer from Scripture.

I do not understand your response.

Are you suggesting that the Scriptures do not present each point that @JonC posted?

Note: with the exception of the last statement (paragraph).

 

[JonC]

Theory. And not the simple answer from Scripture.

Lets discuss it - what did you believe was not in Scripture?