Featured Biblical Atonement (Part 4....but who's counting)

The fact is, the denials of Christ's Atonement being a penal substitution are all post Apostolic. And is not to be found in the written word of God.

 

Neither @JonC nor I deny the Lord suffered. That is penal suffering.

What I read in the Scriptures is that “Christ died for us”. (1 Timothy 5, Romans 5, 1 Corinthians 15, …)

Christ died on behalf of, for the sake of, … us.

I have read not a single verse that Christ suffered God’s wrath for us.


If I missed one, then surely @Martin Marprelate, @Iconoclast, @Aaron, you, or someone would have posted it.


But not to be found folks spend time in philosophy.

The Lord Jesus Christ was “God manifested in the Flesh” (1 Timothy 3).

John states, “18No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is Himself God and is at the Father’s side, has made Him known.”

You want to talk philosophy?

Then explain how God poured out wrath upon God?

 

@Aaron

In the last thread on this topic you mentioned that I should not start with my own notions. But that is exactly what folks that cling to PSA theory do.

Just as the testimony of @JonC and I remarked, we were both presenting PSA thinking as factual, and defendable, until we both were confronted with the fact that the scheme was NOT found to be Scriptural without adding and redirecting the passages to mean what they do not.

A simple passage, "Christ died for us." I took that to include that Christ suffered wrath in my stead, that He bore the wrath of God that I may not. However, that isn't the teaching of the Scriptures both in English and in the original. Not even close. And that is just one of the many.

When it came down to a choice, it was to accept the teaching of Scripture or that of philosophical presentation.

I chose Scriptures.

That is why throughout these many posts and threads I have implored someone to find SOME Scripture that clearly teaches that God poured out His wrath upon the Son.

I really do seek to find such a Scripture, but have not, the searching has been in vain.

 

The Atonement done by Christ is a penal substitution. It's denials are what are post Apostolic.
If you disagree, which I do understand that you do. Then simply present the Biblical Atonement of Christ. What it actually is.

 

That is unBiblical nonsense.

 

Peter states, "Christ also suffered (Greek - experienced ill treatment....) (Peter 3) and this is not denied.

Who caused the suffering? Humans - as Peter states;

22Men of Israel, listen to this message: Jesus of Nazareth was a man certified by God to you by miracles, wonders, and signs, which God did among you through Him, as you yourselves know. 23He was delivered up by God’s set plan and foreknowledge, and you, by the hands of the lawless, put Him to death by nailing Him to the cross. 24But God raised Him from the dead, releasing Him from the agony of death, because it was impossible for Him to be held in its clutches.
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The Atonement of Christ is that Christ suffered and such suffering is ALSO experienced by believers, and even unto death, whether nailed to a cross or not, as Paul states, "We are all sheep lead to the slaughter house." (my paraphrased version)

THE DIFFERENCE is "God raised Him from the dead..." And therefore, as the Redeemer, He also does give unto us eternal life that we not taste of death but are passed from the physical ceasing of vitality into the new creation.

That is Biblical atonement by Christ.

This is the same message of atonement that Paul preached:

3For I delivered to you in the foremost what also I received: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4and that He was buried, and that He was raised the third day according to the Scriptures, 5and that He appeared to Cephas, then to the Twelve. 6Thereafter He appeared to more than five hundred brothers at once, the greater part of whom remain until now, although some have fallen asleep. 7Then He appeared to James, then to all the apostles. 8And last of all, He appeared also to me, as to one of untimely birth.

9For I am the least of the apostles, who am not fit to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God. 10But by the grace of God I am what I am, and His grace toward me has not been void. Rather, I toiled more abundantly than all of them, yet not I, but the grace of God that was with me. 11Therefore whether it was I or they, thus we preach, and thus you believed.​

Paul did not present that Christ suffered the wrath of God poured out upon Him for our atonement.

 

I agree!!!!

That is the point though of the unbiblical PSA Theory.

It is the presentation of the PSA thinking that God poured out His wrath upon the Son, and therefore, the Son took what was our punishment as our substitute by suffering that Wrath from God. That Justice demanded wrath, therefore, Justice had to be satisfied by just payment due.

It is totally not found in Scriptures.

 

Again, I agree.

Yet that is precisely the presentation of the PSA theory.

It is philosophy at best and unbiblical to the core.

 

I have posted three, but you and @JonC have avoided them like the proverbial plague.

 

Martin, I responded to all three.

I did not avoid them. I presented them in context and responded appropriately by showing how they did not support that which you desired.

Not that you might have noticed, though, and I completely understand.

 

@Martin Marprelate

I looked back at the last thread and tried to find them, and didn't. It must have been two threads ago.

Let me know if the Scriptures you presented and the response was in some manner incomplete.

 

Theory. And not the simple answer from Scripture.

 

Perhaps a huge problem is the concept of sacrifice in the Western world in contrast to that of the times of the Hebrews and early believers of the first century.

The Scriptures do not demonstrate any mistreatment given that sacrificed. Rather, a thorough inspection was done to validate the quality and purity of the sacrifice.

That Christ was both pure and innocent is validated in the Scriptures.

That Christ remained without sin is validated in the Scriptures.

That which is NOT validated in Scriptures is that God poured His wrath out upon the pure and innocent Son.

 

I do not understand your response.

Are you suggesting that the Scriptures do not present each point that @JonC posted?

Note: with the exception of the last statement (paragraph).