Did Jesus take on the wrath of God as propitiation for our sin?

[Revmitchell]

This debate rages on even on this board. Those who refuse, due to ungodly presuppositions, to accept the clear scripture of God on this matter work to set up uncommon and unrealistic standards to hold others. For example unless there is a verse the directly says Jesus took on the wrath of God for sinners then they say it cannot be proven. Problem is this standard is not held by anyone else even Jesus Himself.

For instance in Matthew 24:27 scripture tells us that all of the OT spoke of Jesus and that Jesus took the time to point that out. Yet, in none of those passages is there any direct reference to Jesus. His name wasn't mentioned, no scripture gave mention of Him. There are, however, passages that referenced Him indirectly.

In academia among theologians this standard does not exist. Often scripture is determined to be clear on a subject without a direct reference to it.

In scripture we hold to the doctrine of the Trinity. There is no direct mention of the Trinity only clear scripture on each person within the Trinity.

Now we come to this doctrine and some who reject it for personal reasons want to create a false standard and then try to hold everyone else to that false standard. I can only imagine this is done so that they can feel more comfortable with their errant doctrine.

Then to further make themselves comfortable they create a boogy man so that can put a label on someone or group to further prop up their errant doctrine. In this case its the big bad calvies who are the culprit. Placing the accusation on a people group makes room for a label that then tends to garner support for their errant doctrine.

In the case of Jesus taking on the wrath of God as a propitiation for the sin of man scripture is very clear.

The wrath of God is for the lost:

Joh_3:36 Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.
Rom_1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth.
Rom_2:5 But because of your hard and impenitent heart you are storing up wrath for yourself on the day of wrath when God's righteous judgment will be revealed.
Rom_3:5 But if our unrighteousness serves to show the righteousness of God, what shall we say? That God is unrighteous to inflict wrath on us? (I speak in a human way.)
Rom_5:9 Since, therefore, we have now been justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God.

So God does plan to impose His wrath on the lost. Yet there are those who would have us believe that in order to make our sins right that wrath just goes away.

Isaiah 52:14 says that Jesus appearance was so badly marred that he was beyond recognition. This beating and suffering was so severe that He was no longer recognizable. That is in and of itself the wrath of God on Jesus Himself.

Jesus Prayed that if it be the will of the Father that this cup should be removed from Him. That cup being the wrath of God He knew He was about to bear. Jesus spoke of that same cup from the father to John.

Rev_14:10 he also will drink the wine of God's wrath, poured full strength into the cup of his anger, and he will be tormented with fire and sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.

The suffering on the cross should be a clear picture of God's wrath to any reasonable person. The suffering of Jesus should be clearly understood as the wrath of God.

 

[JonC]

Is there a passage that says Jesus took on the wrath of God as a propitiation for our sins? No.

Have you considered that "the cup" does not mean God's wrath (remember, Jesus told His Disciples that they would indeed share that cup).

Matthew 20:22–28 But Jesus answered, “You do not know what you are asking. Are you able to drink the cup that I am about to drink?” They said to Him, “We are able.” He said to them, “My cup you shall drink; but to sit on My right and on My left, this is not Mine to give, but it is for those for whom it has been prepared by My Father.” And hearing this, the ten became indignant with the two brothers.But Jesus called them to Himself and said, “You know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their great men exercise authority over them. “It is not this way among you, but whoever wishes to become great among you shall be your servant,and whoever wishes to be first among you shall be your slave; just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life a ransom for many.”

And you exchange Christ with those who take the "mark of the Beast::

Revelation 14:9–10 Then another angel, a third one, followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed in full strength in the cup of His anger; and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.

Isaiah 52:14 does not say Jesus was beaten beyond recognition by God's wrath (YOU ADD THAT PART). Peter tells us who caused Christ's suffering (wicked men).


Perhaps it would be better to stick with Scripture rather than theories on this issue (it is that important).

Those of us who affirm a traditional view of Scripture (that it is God's Word, perfect, complete, and the test for all doctrine) purpose is men must be reborn in Christ, die to the flesh, be made alive in Christ (in Whom there is no condemnation). Therefore God is just and the justifier of sinners.

 

[Revmitchell]

Yep another non response with no standard

 

[JonC]

Yep another non response with no standard

The standard is Scripture (which I provided).

You "prove" Christ experienced God's wrath by saying Christ "drank the cup" and offered a passage describing a cup of God's wrath.

BUT you exchange Christ for people who recieved the mark of the Beast. That was the cup they would drink.

AND you ignore that the Disciples would share the cup Chrust would drink. Do you believe John and James drank the cup of God's wrath?

You say being beaten is proof Jesus suffered God's wrath. But Christians have a long history of being beaten and crucified. Was this also God's wrath?

There are no passages that support your mythology. The sad part is you know this (you are not stupid), but will continue your debasement of Scripture to cling to your humanistic philosophy.

Have you ever stopped and considered that God's Word just might be enough? Have you ever asked yourself why God did not see fit to write in Scripture the theory upon which you have built your faith?

 

[AustinC]

An example of what Jesus received from God is found as a foreshadowing in Exodus 17:2-7.

In this foreshadowing, the staff of judgment falls upon the rock, not the people. Paul tells us that Jesus is that Rock.

Jesus took the strike deserved for us. What we receive, instead of judgment, is the life giving water of God's grace.

Therefore the people quarreled with Moses and said, “Give us water to drink.” And Moses said to them, “Why do you quarrel with me? Why do you test the Lord?” But the people thirsted there for water, and the people grumbled against Moses and said, “Why did you bring us up out of Egypt, to kill us and our children and our livestock with thirst?” So Moses cried to the Lord, “What shall I do with this people? They are almost ready to stone me.” And the Lord said to Moses, “Pass on before the people, taking with you some of the elders of Israel, and take in your hand the staff with which you struck the Nile, and go. Behold, I will stand before you there on the rock at Horeb, and you shall strike the rock, and water shall come out of it, and the people will drink.” And Moses did so, in the sight of the elders of Israel. And he called the name of the place Massah and Meribah, because of the quarreling of the people of Israel, and because they tested the Lord by saying, “Is the Lord among us or not?”

1 Corinthians 10:1-4

For I do not want you to be unaware, brothers, that our fathers were all under the cloud, and all passed through the sea, and all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea, and all ate the same spiritual food, and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank from the spiritual Rock that followed them, and the Rock was Christ.

 

[JonC]

An example of what Jesus received from God is found as a foreshadowing in Exodus 17:2-7.

In this foreshadowing, the staff of judgment falls upon the rock, not the people. Paul tells us that Jesus is that Rock.

Jesus took the strike deserved for us. What we receive, instead of judgment, is the life giving water of God's grace.

Therefore the people quarreled with Moses and said, “Give us water to drink.” And Moses said to them, “Why do you quarrel with me? Why do you test the Lord?” But the people thirsted there for water, and the people grumbled against Moses and said, “Why did you bring us up out of Egypt, to kill us and our children and our livestock with thirst?” So Moses cried to the Lord, “What shall I do with this people? They are almost ready to stone me.” And the Lord said to Moses, “Pass on before the people, taking with you some of the elders of Israel, and take in your hand the staff with which you struck the Nile, and go. Behold, I will stand before you there on the rock at Horeb, and you shall strike the rock, and water shall come out of it, and the people will drink.” And Moses did so, in the sight of the elders of Israel. And he called the name of the place Massah and Meribah, because of the quarreling of the people of Israel, and because they tested the Lord by saying, “Is the Lord among us or not?”

1 Corinthians 10:1-4

For I do not want you to be unaware, brothers, that our fathers were all under the cloud, and all passed through the sea, and all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea, and all ate the same spiritual food, and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank from the spiritual Rock that followed them, and the Rock was Christ.

I think you meant that Jesus took the strike that we deserved. And this is true. If you meant Jesus took the strike instead of us, that would be adding to Scripture (there is only One "Spiritual Rock").

 

[Reynolds]

This debate rages on even on this board. Those who refuse, due to ungodly presuppositions, to accept the clear scripture of God on this matter work to set up uncommon and unrealistic standards to hold others. For example unless there is a verse the directly says Jesus took on the wrath of God for sinners then they say it cannot be proven. Problem is this standard is not held by anyone else even Jesus Himself.

For instance in Matthew 24:27 scripture tells us that all of the OT spoke of Jesus and that Jesus took the time to point that out. Yet, in none of those passages is there any direct reference to Jesus. His name wasn't mentioned, no scripture gave mention of Him. There are, however, passages that referenced Him indirectly.

In academia among theologians this standard does not exist. Often scripture is determined to be clear on a subject without a direct reference to it.

In scripture we hold to the doctrine of the Trinity. There is no direct mention of the Trinity only clear scripture on each person within the Trinity.

Now we come to this doctrine and some who reject it for personal reasons want to create a false standard and then try to hold everyone else to that false standard. I can only imagine this is done so that they can feel more comfortable with their errant doctrine.

Then to further make themselves comfortable they create a boogy man so that can put a label on someone or group to further prop up their errant doctrine. In this case its the big bad calvies who are the culprit. Placing the accusation on a people group makes room for a label that then tends to garner support for their errant doctrine.

In the case of Jesus taking on the wrath of God as a propitiation for the sin of man scripture is very clear.

The wrath of God is for the lost:

Joh_3:36 Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.
Rom_1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth.
Rom_2:5 But because of your hard and impenitent heart you are storing up wrath for yourself on the day of wrath when God's righteous judgment will be revealed.
Rom_3:5 But if our unrighteousness serves to show the righteousness of God, what shall we say? That God is unrighteous to inflict wrath on us? (I speak in a human way.)
Rom_5:9 Since, therefore, we have now been justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God.

So God does plan to impose His wrath on the lost. Yet there are those who would have us believe that in order to make our sins right that wrath just goes away.

Isaiah 52:14 says that Jesus appearance was so badly marred that he was beyond recognition. This beating and suffering was so severe that He was no longer recognizable. That is in and of itself the wrath of God on Jesus Himself.

Jesus Prayed that if it be the will of the Father that this cup should be removed from Him. That cup being the wrath of God He knew He was about to bear. Jesus spoke of that same cup from the father to John.

Rev_14:10 he also will drink the wine of God's wrath, poured full strength into the cup of his anger, and he will be tormented with fire and sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.

The suffering on the cross should be a clear picture of God's wrath to any reasonable person. The suffering of Jesus should be clearly understood as the wrath of God.

I agree except for the cup. The cup is just a symbol for the entire passion.

 

[AustinC]

I think you meant that Jesus took the strike that we deserved. And this is true. If you meant Jesus took the strike instead of us, that would be adding to Scripture (there is only One "Spiritual Rock").

Who did Moses rod of judgment strike? The Rock or the People?

Who did God's rod of judgment strike, Jesus or you?

The parallel is not mine, it is the Apostle Paul's. Therefore, you have to take it up with Paul who made the connection between Jesus and the Rock.

 

[canadyjd]

This debate rages on even on this board. Those who refuse, due to ungodly presuppositions, to accept the clear scripture of God on this matter work to set up uncommon and unrealistic standards to hold others. For example unless there is a verse the directly says Jesus took on the wrath of God for sinners then they say it cannot be proven. Problem is this standard is not held by anyone else even Jesus Himself.

For instance in Matthew 24:27 scripture tells us that all of the OT spoke of Jesus and that Jesus took the time to point that out. Yet, in none of those passages is there any direct reference to Jesus. His name wasn't mentioned, no scripture gave mention of Him. There are, however, passages that referenced Him indirectly.

In academia among theologians this standard does not exist. Often scripture is determined to be clear on a subject without a direct reference to it.

In scripture we hold to the doctrine of the Trinity. There is no direct mention of the Trinity only clear scripture on each person within the Trinity.

Now we come to this doctrine and some who reject it for personal reasons want to create a false standard and then try to hold everyone else to that false standard. I can only imagine this is done so that they can feel more comfortable with their errant doctrine.

Then to further make themselves comfortable they create a boogy man so that can put a label on someone or group to further prop up their errant doctrine. In this case its the big bad calvies who are the culprit. Placing the accusation on a people group makes room for a label that then tends to garner support for their errant doctrine.

In the case of Jesus taking on the wrath of God as a propitiation for the sin of man scripture is very clear.

The wrath of God is for the lost:

Joh_3:36 Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.
Rom_1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth.
Rom_2:5 But because of your hard and impenitent heart you are storing up wrath for yourself on the day of wrath when God's righteous judgment will be revealed.
Rom_3:5 But if our unrighteousness serves to show the righteousness of God, what shall we say? That God is unrighteous to inflict wrath on us? (I speak in a human way.)
Rom_5:9 Since, therefore, we have now been justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God.

So God does plan to impose His wrath on the lost. Yet there are those who would have us believe that in order to make our sins right that wrath just goes away.

Isaiah 52:14 says that Jesus appearance was so badly marred that he was beyond recognition. This beating and suffering was so severe that He was no longer recognizable. That is in and of itself the wrath of God on Jesus Himself.

Jesus Prayed that if it be the will of the Father that this cup should be removed from Him. That cup being the wrath of God He knew He was about to bear. Jesus spoke of that same cup from the father to John.

Rev_14:10 he also will drink the wine of God's wrath, poured full strength into the cup of his anger, and he will be tormented with fire and sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.

The suffering on the cross should be a clear picture of God's wrath to any reasonable person. The suffering of Jesus should be clearly understood as the wrath of God.

It is a very interesting question. There is no doubt scripture says the wrath of God is upon unbelievers.

Since Jesus is also clearly identified as the sacrifice for our sins, fulfilling the “shadow” of what was the OT sacrifice, perhaps a passage from the OT concerning those sacrifices might shed light on whether God’s wrath was poured out on them.

If scripture says God’s wrath was “poured out” or “satisfied” by the OT sacrifices, then that would illuminate this question.

peace to you

 

[JesusFan]

Is there a passage that says Jesus took on the wrath of God as a propitiation for our sins? No.

Have you considered that "the cup" does not mean God's wrath (remember, Jesus told His Disciples that they would indeed share that cup).

Matthew 20:22–28 But Jesus answered, “You do not know what you are asking. Are you able to drink the cup that I am about to drink?” They said to Him, “We are able.” He said to them, “My cup you shall drink; but to sit on My right and on My left, this is not Mine to give, but it is for those for whom it has been prepared by My Father.” And hearing this, the ten became indignant with the two brothers.But Jesus called them to Himself and said, “You know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their great men exercise authority over them. “It is not this way among you, but whoever wishes to become great among you shall be your servant,and whoever wishes to be first among you shall be your slave; just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life a ransom for many.”

And you exchange Christ with those who take the "mark of the Beast::

Revelation 14:9–10 Then another angel, a third one, followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed in full strength in the cup of His anger; and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.

Isaiah 52:14 does not say Jesus was beaten beyond recognition by God's wrath (YOU ADD THAT PART). Peter tells us who caused Christ's suffering (wicked men).


Perhaps it would be better to stick with Scripture rather than theories on this issue (it is that important).

Those of us who affirm a traditional view of Scripture (that it is God's Word, perfect, complete, and the test for all doctrine) purpose is men must be reborn in Christ, die to the flesh, be made alive in Christ (in Whom there is no condemnation). Therefore God is just and the justifier of sinners.

There was in the OT a Bowl of wrath being remembered and stored up by God against all who commit wickedness, did that somehow just disappear then?

 

[JesusFan]

The standard is Scripture (which I provided).

You "prove" Christ experienced God's wrath by saying Christ "drank the cup" and offered a passage describing a cup of God's wrath.

BUT you exchange Christ for people who recieved the mark of the Beast. That was the cup they would drink.

AND you ignore that the Disciples would share the cup Chrust would drink. Do you believe John and James drank the cup of God's wrath?

You say being beaten is proof Jesus suffered God's wrath. But Christians have a long history of being beaten and crucified. Was this also God's wrath?

There are no passages that support your mythology. The sad part is you know this (you are not stupid), but will continue your debasement of Scripture to cling to your humanistic philosophy.

Have you ever stopped and considered that God's Word just might be enough? Have you ever asked yourself why God did not see fit to write in Scripture the theory upon which you have built your faith?

their cup was physically death for his sake, but his was that and FAR more!

 

[JesusFan]

The standard is Scripture (which I provided).

You "prove" Christ experienced God's wrath by saying Christ "drank the cup" and offered a passage describing a cup of God's wrath.

BUT you exchange Christ for people who recieved the mark of the Beast. That was the cup they would drink.

AND you ignore that the Disciples would share the cup Chrust would drink. Do you believe John and James drank the cup of God's wrath?

You say being beaten is proof Jesus suffered God's wrath. But Christians have a long history of being beaten and crucified. Was this also God's wrath?

There are no passages that support your mythology. The sad part is you know this (you are not stupid), but will continue your debasement of Scripture to cling to your humanistic philosophy.

Have you ever stopped and considered that God's Word just might be enough? Have you ever asked yourself why God did not see fit to write in Scripture the theory upon which you have built your faith?

Was why Jesus so much in turmoil with the possibility of facing that Cup. if merely physical death!

 

[JonC]

Who did Moses rod of judgment strike? The Rock or the People?

Who did God's rod of judgment strike, Jesus or you?

The parallel is not mine, it is the Apostle Paul's. Therefore, you have to take it up with Paul who made the connection between Jesus and the Rock.

Please provide a passage speaking of Moses' "Rod of Justice". Thanks.

 

[JonC]

Was why Jesus so much in turmoil with the possibility of facing that Cup. if merely physical death!

Seriously?

If you were facing bring whipped, beaten, tortured, humiliated and hung naked on a cross until you died and knew beforehand of the experience why would you be in so much turmoil?

 

[JonC]

their cup was physically death for his sake, but his was that and FAR more!

No. Scripture has Christ telling then that they would drink from His cup. Are you suggesting Christ was lying?

 

[JesusFan]

Is there a passage that says Jesus took on the wrath of God as a propitiation for our sins? No.

Have you considered that "the cup" does not mean God's wrath (remember, Jesus told His Disciples that they would indeed share that cup).

Matthew 20:22–28 But Jesus answered, “You do not know what you are asking. Are you able to drink the cup that I am about to drink?” They said to Him, “We are able.” He said to them, “My cup you shall drink; but to sit on My right and on My left, this is not Mine to give, but it is for those for whom it has been prepared by My Father.” And hearing this, the ten became indignant with the two brothers.But Jesus called them to Himself and said, “You know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their great men exercise authority over them. “It is not this way among you, but whoever wishes to become great among you shall be your servant,and whoever wishes to be first among you shall be your slave; just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life a ransom for many.”

And you exchange Christ with those who take the "mark of the Beast::

Revelation 14:9–10 Then another angel, a third one, followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed in full strength in the cup of His anger; and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.

Isaiah 52:14 does not say Jesus was beaten beyond recognition by God's wrath (YOU ADD THAT PART). Peter tells us who caused Christ's suffering (wicked men).


Perhaps it would be better to stick with Scripture rather than theories on this issue (it is that important).

Those of us who affirm a traditional view of Scripture (that it is God's Word, perfect, complete, and the test for all doctrine) purpose is men must be reborn in Christ, die to the flesh, be made alive in Christ (in Whom there is no condemnation). Therefore God is just and the justifier of sinners.

On what basis is He able to do that, if His wrath not been propitiated yet?

 

[JesusFan]

Seriously?

If you were facing bring whipped, beaten, tortured, humiliated and hung naked on a cross until you died and knew beforehand of the experience why would you be in so much turmoil?

that was nothing compared to being forsaken by the father and experiencing on that Cross what we all deserved in judgement!

 

[JesusFan]

No. Scripture has Christ telling then that they would drink from His cup. Are you suggesting Christ was lying?

No, but that you misunderstand him!

 

[JonC]

On what basis is He able to do that, if His wrath not been propitiated yet?

I have no idea what you are asking. God's wrath is reserved "for that day", the Judgment. Christ is the Propitiation for the sins of the whole world, in Whom we escape the wrath to come.

The idea Christ suffered God's wrath is extrabiblical. It is, in fact, anti-biblical.

 

[JesusFan]

I have no idea what you are asking. God's wrath is reserved "for that day", the Judgment. Christ is the Propitiation for the sins of the whole world, in Whom we escape the wrath to come.

The idea Christ suffered God's wrath is extrabiblical. It is, in fact, anti-biblical.

Why would not the sin bearer endure that wrath then?