Magic Blood Theory

[JonC]

Isn't this the common plea that we have given out.

Scripture.

Not other people's opinions, but Scripture.

I am actually amazed at what I can only see as a type of depravity.

I understand disagreements and even divisions among Christians. But I have never before encountered such a group that ignores pleas to seek out God's Word.

I'm not a betting man but this time I'll wager $50 that @Iconoclast is going to post a series of Scripture you and I affirm (probably in multi-colors and large fonts) and then claim the "proper understanding of Scripture" is something completely foreign to the text of Scripture he quotes. (In reality, I'm not really sure that'd count as a bet).

 

[JonC]

Jon, what does God's law require?
You use the term "paid" and then reject that a payment was made. I cannot make it up. You literally use a word, then deny that words meaning all in the same sentence. It is no wonder why no one can actually discuss the issue with you. You say one thing and mean another. This lack of clarity is all on you.

The Law requires that men who sin be condemned. Thankfully Scripture speaks of the righteousness of God manifested apart from the Law.

Men must be born again, die to the flesh, and be made alive in the Spirit (a new creation).

What sins do you believe the Spirit has committed?

 

[agedman]

Unfortunately, you and Jon provide mostly opinion with verses that do nothing to make whatever point you are actually trying to make.

Sorry that you don't read with understanding.

I know my mind wanders, and when I post I do attempt to make the reading flow.

If ever you have a question concerning a verse and what I said concerning it, just ask. Perhaps I was someplace else when my fingers were working at poking the pad.

Being ADD, the time from formation to presentation is filled with distractions that diminish the focus and the randomness can easily be displayed.

But, these are no excuse. So, if I am unclear, ask in specific ways, and I promise that I will make all attempts to rectify any misunderstanding(s).

 

[Iconoclast]

I am actually amazed at what I can only see as a type of depravity.

I understand disagreements and even divisions among Christians. But I have never before encountered such a group that ignores pleas to seek out God's Word.

I'm not a betting man but this time I'll wager $50 that @Iconoclast is going to post a series of Scripture you and I affirm (probably in multi-colors and large fonts) and then claim the "proper understanding of Scripture" is something completely foreign to the text of Scripture he quotes. (In reality, I'm not really sure that'd count as a bet).

Let me give you an example of your error right here John;
You posted this ;

[QUOTEWe read "Christ bore our sins bodily" and "He shared our infirmity". I understand this to say that Christ bore our sins in His body, He shared in our sickness. You read it to say "Jesus experienced God's wrath instead of us".][/QUOTE]

The thing is you are here once again explaining away the text....how do we know this? Because the Holy Spirit had Matthew tell us what it actually means here;

14 And when Jesus was come into Peter's house, he saw his wife's mother laid, and sick of a fever.

15 And he touched her hand, and the fever left her: and she arose, and ministered unto them.

16 When the even was come, they brought unto him many that were possessed with devils: and he cast out the spirits with his word, and healed all that were sick:

17 That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Esaias the prophet, saying, Himself took our infirmities, and bare our sicknesses.
He healed them, he removed the problem.

The scripture says nothing about Jesus
"bore our sins in His body" as you claim.

It says nothing about;
" He shared in our sickness"

No he healed them and none of the sickness was in His body, He did not share our sickness.
You take half a verse explained by The Holy Spirit in MT 8, and you try and fudge it to explain away the atonement verses used elsewhere.
Your use of part of this verse is not correctly using the scripture, but twisting it in an effort to deflect from the other verses employed.

 

[JonC]

Let me give you an example of your error right here John ...The scripture says nothing about Jesus "bore our sins in His body" as you claim.

1 Peter 2:23–24 and while being reviled, He did not revile in return; while suffering, He uttered no threats, but kept entrusting Himself to Him who judges righteously;
24 and He Himself bore our sins in His body on the cross, so that we might die to sin and live to righteousness; for by His wounds you were healed.


This is the issue, @Iconoclast.

You say I am wrong to claim that "Jesus bore our sins in His body on the cross". You call me unbiblical....you say it is error.


BUT....this is EXACTLY WHAT SCRIPTURE SAYS!!!!!

You just believe it is not what Scripture "teaches".

 

[Iconoclast]

1 Peter 2:23–24 and while being reviled, He did not revile in return; while suffering, He uttered no threats, but kept entrusting Himself to Him who judges righteously;
24 and He Himself bore our sins in His body on the cross, so that we might die to sin and live to righteousness; for by His wounds you were healed.


This is the issue, @Iconoclast.

You say I am wrong to claim that "Jesus bore our sins in His body on the cross". You call me u biblical.


YET....this is EXACTLT WHAT SCRIPTURE SAYS!!!!!

You just believe it is not what Scripture "teaches".

I did not quote Peter yet. I quoted accurately Mt. 8 and what God said that meant in mt.8 which is before the cross. Even Peter does not say he took our sicknesses,lol
We will get to Peter, but this is part of how you confuse the issue by blending partially verses together.

 

[JonC]

Even Peter does not say he took our sicknesses,lol

Isaiah 53:4 Yet He Himself bore our sicknesses, and He carried our pains; but we in turn regarded Him stricken, struck down by God, and afflicted.

You are confused here. Scrioture is mot talking about our colds, stomach aches, and coronaviruses.

What Isaiah refers to as "our sickness" or "infirmaty" is our bondage under the consequences of sin and death. Paul says the same in Hebrews.

 

[JonC]

I did not quote Peter yet. I quoted accurately Mt. 8 and what God said that meant in mt.8 which is before the cross. Even Peter does not say he took our sicknesses,lol
We will get to Peter, but this is part of how you confuse the issue by blending partially verses together.

Ok....OK.... you are making a fool of yourself.

I say Christ bore our sins in His body. You say this is my error - that Scripture doesn't say that. I give you the verse I was quoting. You say it's not in Matthew. Who said anything about Matthew???? It isn't in Treasure Island either.

 

[Iconoclast]

Isaiah 53:4 Yet He Himself bore our sicknesses, and He carried our pains; but we in turn regarded Him stricken, struck down by God, and afflicted.

You are confused here. Scrioture is mot talking about our colds, stomach aches, and coronaviruses.

What Isaiah refers to as "our sickness" or "infirmaty" is our bondage under the consequences of sin and death. Paul says the same in Hebrews.

NOTICE WHAT JONC TRIES TO PULL HERE..as an example of what he does in each thread,lol
Peter is not Isaiah...I know you are trying to divert away from being exposed, but it is underway.
This is quoted in Mt8..BEFORE THE CROSS;
17 That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Esaias the prophet, saying, Himself took our infirmities, and bare our sicknesses.

Jonc used it wrong, but now skips out of Mt.8 and tries to link it after the cross in 1pet, trying to suggest I do not believe 1Pet.

 

[JonC]

@Iconoclast

Don't worry about what I believe....worry about what you believe.

I can provide my own proof from what is written in Scripture. Thus far you cannot.

 

[Iconoclast]

Ok....OK.... you are making a fool of yourself.

I say Christ bore our sins in His body. You say this is my error - that Scripture doesn't say that. I give you the verse I was quoting. You say it's not in Matthew. Who said anything about Matthew???? It isn't in Treasure Island either.

Here is your original quote once again;

[QUOTEWe read "Christ bore our sins bodily" and "He shared our infirmity". I understand this to say that Christ bore our sins in His body, He shared in our sickness. You read it to say "Jesus experienced God's wrath instead of us".]

[/QUOTE]

you mixed two separate references Isa 53;5 was quoted by matthew, before the cross...

Here you did the same thing posting to Aaron;

He shared in our infirmity.....we deserve the infirmity......He doesn't.

 

[Iconoclast]

@Iconoclast

Don't worry about what I believe....worry about what you believe.

I can provide my own proof from what is written in Scripture. Thus far you cannot.

No you cannot...you repeat partial verses without understanding. We will see it. many have already seen it, but you invited me to this discussion.
That is why i will extract it from your posts.

 

[JonC]

NOTICE WHAT JONC TRIES TO PULL HERE..as an example of what he does in each thread,lol
Peter is not Isaiah...I know you are trying to divert away from being exposed, but it is underway.
This is quoted in Mt8..BEFORE THE CROSS;
17 That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Esaias the prophet, saying, Himself took our infirmities, and bare our sicknesses.

Jonc used it wrong, but now skips out of Mt.8 and tries to link it after the cross in 1pet, trying to suggest I do not believe 1Pet.

Again....you are making a fool of yourself.

I said I believe Christ bore our dins in His body, that Christ shared our infirmity. You claimed this was not in Scripture.

Who said anything about it being in Matthew, 1 Peter, or Isaiah???? I said it was what I believed. You said IT IS NOT IN SCRIPTURE.

You are wrong.

God's Word is not just one book of the Bible.

Like I said, show where Scripture states the components of your faith. Like I said, you don't have to limit yourself to one book...gather passages.

Show a passage that states God punished Jesus instead of us.

Show another (from anywhere in Scripture) that states Christ suffered God's wrath.

Show another (from anywhere in Scripture) that Christ's death appeased God.

Show another (from anywhere in Scripture) that Jesus died instead of us dying.

You can't because it is not actually in God's Word. Your faith is no different from the prosperity gospel, RCC doctrine, or Apostolic Pentecostal theology. It is what you believe Scripture teaches but is nowhere in God's Word.

 

[JonC]

you mixed two separate references Isa 53;5 was quoted by matthew, before the cross...

God's Word is God's Word. I believe Christ bore our sins in His body on the cross. I believe Christ shared our infirmity. One complements the other...... they are not contradictory. Scripture interprets Scripture.

You are just trying to obscure the fact that your belief is foreign to God's Word.

 

[JonC]

Have you found even one verse that states even one of those things I suggest you have added to Scripture?

Let's take a look. Start with just one -

Where is it written in God's Word that Christ suffered God's wrath?

 

[Iconoclast]

God's Word is God's Word. I believe Christ bore our sins in His body on the cross. I believe Christ shared our infirmity. One complements the other...... they are not contradictory. Scripture interprets Scripture.

You are just trying to obscure the fact that your belief is foreign to God's Word.

Here you did it with Aaron;

He shared in our infirmity.....we deserve the infirmity......He doesn't.
That is from mt.8
Aaron answered this making the same observation;
JonC posted
[Yes.
He shared in our infirmity.....we deserve the infirmity......He doesn't.]

Aaron answered
Infirmity is not a result of sin. Neither is it a judgment. It is just the nature of being flesh and bone. We're talking about who was being struck with the rod. Did Moses strike a sponge, or a rock?

again Aaron caught you repeating this error;
↑
JonC said;
Infirmity is the bondage under which we were enslaved (the wages of sin).

Aaron caught it;
And you speak of wresting the Scriptures!
Infirmity is mere physical weakness. A babe is very much alive, but weak. The wages of sin is death.

 

[JonC]

Here you did it with Aaron;

He shared in our infirmity.....we deserve the infirmity......He doesn't.
That is from mt.8
Aaron answered this making the same observation;
JonC posted
[Yes.
He shared in our infirmity.....we deserve the infirmity......He doesn't.]

Aaron answered
Infirmity is not a result of sin. Neither is it a judgment. It is just the nature of being flesh and bone. We're talking about who was being struck with the rod. Did Moses strike a sponge, or a rock?

again Aaron caught you repeating this error;
↑
JonC said;
Infirmity is the bondage under which we were enslaved (the wages of sin).

Aaron caught it;
And you speak of wresting the Scriptures!
Infirmity is mere physical weakness. A babe is very much alive, but weak. The wages of sin is death.

Odd....Hebrews 3:15 uses the exact same word to speak of Christ as our High Priest sympathizing with our "physical weakness". So you are saying this means "physical sickness". Romans 8 says the Spirit helps "our physical weakness".

I guess I always assumed our struggle with the flesh was a spiritual issue....not just physical weakness. Go figure.

And Aaron did mot catch anything. The wages of sin is death. This is the curse, the bondage under which we were sold.

That said, I said we deserve this infirmity, He doesn't. Stop repeating what I have said as if I said otherwise. That is not being honest in a discussion.


What about YOUR faith? Have you found even ONE VERSE stating Chirst suffered God's wrath?

 

[JonC]

Ok....all...OK........
.

It is painfully obvious that @Iconoclast cannot support his view via Scripture.

I do not care what those men he chooses to follow says. I do not care about what he believes is taught but not actually said in God's Word.

It us getting old reading through His references of men who tickle his ears and listening to his opinions of what he wishes Scripture said.

So I'm out (as far as @Iconoclast goes). I am open to others who are willing to trust in God's Word. But I am not interested in those who remain carried away by philosophy. There is nothing to be gained speaking about what Murray taught, or what somebody believes Scripture "teaches".

@Iconoclast , if you ever find a passage ("what is written") that states your belief then PM me and let me know. We'll discuss it then.

Until then, just keep in mind John Calvin did not die to save you. Please consider trusting in Hod and His Word rather than humanistic philosophy

 

[JonC]

@agedman ,

It's all yours. I think we have exhausted the appeal for Christians to seek out Scripture and now (for me) it is time to shake the dust off my running shoes.

There is a condition worse than blindness, and that is, seeing something that isn't there. - Hardy

 

[Revmitchell]

In a closed thread on atonement @JonC concluded a point by saying, "Who was paid? Nobody was paid. We were bought with a price. Christ's blood."

The only conclusion I could make from this is that Jesus shed blood was magical blood that didn't pay anyone or anything, but somehow bought something that cost something. And the conclusion is...Christ's blood.

If it does nothing yet buys something, but pays no one, I can only conclude it's magic blood. What else could it be?

Now, if you're as confused by Jon's statement as I am, I am pretty sure I just confused you even more because, well, it's just a bundle of confusing confusion, but somehow it's biblical and everything else is just philosophical without any biblical support so we got that going for us, which is nice.

Its a waste of time. No matter how you frame their error a hard heart will not be moved. They are not interested in the truth on this matter they are only interested in their agenda. No matter what clear scripture and reasoning they are given they dodge key points in posts giving solid
Evidence for PSA. They pick and choose what they feel they can attack and act as if singular points are the whole of the argument. Its a debate tactic and not an honest discussion. Its not worth the effort when their posts lack integrity.