Featured THE MARK OF GOD AND BEAST

As a disclaimer, I am a Preterist. As such, I believe that most of the events in Revelation were fulfilled in the destruction of Jerusalem and of the Temple in AD 70. I believe the Beast was the Roman Empire, and that 666 was Emperor Nero. If you disagree with me (as I expect you will), I won't be offended. The Scriptures are inspired, but our views are not.

Often when people speak of the Mark of the Beast, they overlook the "mark" or "seal" of God on His people. My compliments to you on providing all those examples of God placing His "mark" on His people. Revelation 13:16-17 tells us that nobody would be able to buy or sell unless they had a mark either on their right hand or their forehead. According to Gary DeMar, this passage "is not describing the control of financial transactions but rather access to the Temple controlled by the Jewish anti-Christian religious establishment. The key to interpreting the passage is the prohibition 'to buy or to sell' if a worshiper does not have the Mark of the Beast". He goes on to say "Buying and selling are controlled by the temple leadership and are used to regulate access to the temple (Matthew 21:12). Buying and selling, properly understood, are worship-related rituals (Isaiah 55:1). (Last Days Madness, pg. 250). To "take the Mark" meant they were aligned with the priests, the sacrificial system, and the Temple in order to worship. That meant denying that Jesus is the true Temple of God. The Christian Jews aligned themselves with Jesus "having His Name and the Name of His Father written on their foreheads" (Revelation 14:1).

Having said all that, you do present a very real concern where governments are becoming more totalitarian and dictatorial. This is a time for serious revival throughout the world. Times look really tough, but we serve a victorious Lord.

 

“Go throughout the city, throughout Jerusalem, and mark thau on the foreheads of all those who grieve and lament over all the abominable practices that run rampant throughout its boundaries.”Ezekiel 9:4



Ash Wednesday all those who gather in repentance are sealed by the sign Thau the Cross on that Day of fasting and lamenting sin.



The sign itself but also that it is made in ash is the sign of lamentation and repentance.

Refer to King of Nineveh sitting ashes wearing sackcloth.

Important to be sealed in the Sign of Christ, all else is under the Wrath when the destroyer comes.

5 To the others I heard him say: “Follow him throughout the city and kill, without looking upon them with pity or showing them any mercy. 6 Cut down old men, young men and maidens, small children and women, but touch no one who is marked on the forehead with a cross. Begin at my sanctuary.” And so they began with the elders who were in front of the temple. 7 Then he said to them: “Defile the temple and fill the courtyards with the slain.” Then they went forth and killed their way through the city.“



The destroyer passes those marked with the sign.

 

No, the beast's mark will be physical, issued by man, while GOD'S mark will be spiritual & supernatural.

As for Nero/Rome being the beast-Let's put that nonsense to rest right now, with SCRIPTURE & REALITY !

First, the Scripture: Rev. 19:

11 Now I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse. And He who sat on him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and makes war. 12 His eyes were like a flame of fire, and on His head were many crowns. He had a name written that no one knew except Himself. 13 He was clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God. 14 And the armies in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, followed Him on white horses. 15 Now out of His mouth goes a sharp sword, that with it He should strike the nations. And He Himself will rule them with a rod of iron. He Himself treads the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. 16 And He has on His robe and on His thigh a name written:KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS.
17 Then I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the birds that fly in the midst of heaven, “Come and gather together for the supper of the great God, 18 that you may eat the flesh of kings, the flesh of captains, the flesh of mighty men, the flesh of horses and of those who sit on them, and the flesh of all people, free and slave, both small and great.”

19 And I saw the beast, the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against Him who sat on the horse and against His army. 20 Then the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who worked signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image. These two were cast alive into the lake of fire burning with brimstone. 21 And the rest were killed with the sword which proceeded from the mouth of Him who sat on the horse. And all the birds were filled with their flesh.

Now, the reality: The above Scriptures are mostly literal, except the sword coming from Jesus' mouth represents His spoken word.
Now, nothing even remotely close to those events has happened yet. So, it's common sense that if Nero/Rome was the beast, Nero wouldn't have died as history records, the millenium would be past, the great White Throne judgment woulda happened, & the New Jerusalem would be here, the face of the earth having been re-arranged by God. So, the "Nero/Rome = beast" thingie goes "POOF!"

Again, the marka the beast will almost certainly be some sorta microchip or similar man-made, physical device, while GOD'S mark will be spiritual and supernatural.

 

Since we agree that God's people are not physically marked, how do you know for certain that the Mark of the Beast won't also be spiritual?

Let me explain how Scripture and reality do put this question to rest. Recently @kyredneck posted a quote from a Messianic Jew named Alfred Edersheim (1825-1889) - "In the New Testament, prophecies are not made to point to facts, but facts point back to prophecies." Rev 19:11-18 describe Christ coming executing judgment on Jerusalem. Just as most the preceding verses used symbolic language, verses 19-21 are also symbolic. Since the Beast is not a literal beast, the Lake of Fire (in this passage) must not refer to the literal Lake of Fire. This conveys the idea of the complete destruction of Jerusalem and the Old Covenant system in AD 70. The closest we will ever come to putting this to rest is to agree to disagree.

 

Because the marka the beast will be issued by a man, & no man can issue a spiritual mark.

Edersheim died before modern Israel came to be, & before the current world attitude came about, before the 2 world wars, etc.

And the "symbolic" excuse won't work. The only thing symbolic in Rev. 19:11-21 is the sword coming from Jesus' mouth. That set of verses clearly proves the beast hasn't yet come when paired with reality & history.
Your hero Nero died, as historucally documented, & his tomb is still standing. He was NOT cast alive into hell. Thus, since the beast hasn't yet come, neither has the marka the beast. And JESUS isn't physically, visibly here, ruling the nations with a rod of iron. You say you're a Christian, so HOW CAN YOU KEEP DENYING THE TRUTH OF THE SCRIPTURES I POSTED IN #4 ABOVE ? ? ?

Yes, we disagree, as I've PROVEN my beliefs, & you've only guessed at yours, depending upon Gentry & other quacks to provide intel on them insteada relying upon Scripture, history, and reality. (Not trying to be smart-aleck nor condescending here; just pointing out some indisputable FACTS.)

Again, man's mark will be physical, while GOD'S mark will be spiritual.

 

How do you know for certain that the Mark of the Beast will be issued by a man?

That entire passage was symbolic. Will Jesus literally wear a bloody garment? Will He literally stomp a winepress? Will "King of Kings and Lord of Lords" literally be written on that bloody garment?

And I've proven my case from Scripture and history. We are not arguing about facts, but about interpretations of prophecies.

 

Because the false prophet, who will issue it at his boss. order, will be a man.

No, it's not.

We won't know til we see His return.

No, you haven't proven diddly.
OTOH, I have **PROVEN** BY SCRIPTURE that if the beast has come & gone, JESUS would now physically, visibly be here, ruling the world. Even a 5th grader can see that by reading Rev. 19:11-21.

Now, there's no use going over the same ole stuff because you can't get past the FACT that Rev. 19 plainly says the beast will be here when Jesus returns, & Jesus will dispose of him & rule the world, and Jesus is NOT here now; therefore the beast hasn't yet come. And that also means the marka the beast hasn't yet been issued. I'm not gonna discuss any more along this line unless you can get past those Scriptures & the fact that Jesus has not returned yet, or He'd still be here.

What do you other readers of this thread say? WHO has made his point? Isn't it time to move on?

 

Yea, mostly the interpretations of robyprophet.

 

Can YOU prove what I wrote above is wrong? The other gent isn't doing too hot.

 

And how do you know for certain that the false prophet will issue a literal mark of the beast?

You just don't seem to accept the fact that most of Revelation is filled with symbolism. Every number, every color, every garment, every specific detail points to something.

The only thing you've proven is your inability to understand these prophecies. You are so stuck on your interpretation that you can't see the evidence of Scripture in front of you. Even a 5th grader can read where Jesus told His disciples the events He described in the Olivet Discourse would happen soon. Actually, the 5th grader would understand "soon" to mean "soon" instead of trying to change what "soon" means. Likewise, Revelation contains several time indicators that you either ignore or change what they mean. I have proven my case by comparing Scripture with Scripture, without changing the natural meaning of any words. You have not done so, Brother.

If you choose not to discuss this further, it's okay with me. We each have an entirely different premise. Occam's Razor tells us that the simplest theory is to be preferred over the complex. The Futurist views of prophecy require lots of interpretative gymnastics and driving a lot of "square pegs into round holes". The Partial Preterist view is very straight-forward, and is easily seen with a "naturalistic" reading of Scripture.

 

Rev. 13:11 Then I saw another beast coming up out of the earth, and he had two horns like a lamb and spoke like a dragon. 12 And he exercises all the authority of the first beast in his presence, and causes the earth and those who dwell in it to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed. 13 He performs great signs, so that he even makes fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men. 14 And he deceives those who dwell on the earth by those signs which he was granted to do in the sight of the beast, telling those who dwell on the earth to make an image to the beast who was wounded by the sword and lived. 15 He was granted power to give breath to the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak and cause as many as would not worship the image of the beast to be killed. 16 He causes all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on their right hand or on their foreheads, 17 and that no one may buy or sell except one who has the mark or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

Now, was that man the false prophet? Again, let SCRIPTURE answer:

Rev. 19:20Then the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who worked signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image. These two were cast alive into the lake of fire burning with brimstone.

What I don't accept is preterists' assigning symbolism to every Scripture that disproves their doctrine.

Sir, the greatest proof of all is right before you-THE PROPHESIED EVENTS HAVE NOT YET HAPPENED ! There's simply NO getting by that FACT! You may holler 'soon' until the cows come home, but you cannot get by the fact that the events are yet to come. I rest my case! The ball's in YOUR end of the court!

IN REALITY, Occam's Razor shaves away preterism. It says the prophesied events have already happened, while history and reality proves they HAVEN'T. if I say "This is Monday; it's gonna rain tomorrow, Tuesday" and Wednesday comes with no rain on Tuesday, and I say, "Well, it rained 600 miles south of here" or There was a heavy dew, which is the same as rain", am I making an excuse for being wrong? Am I assigning symbolism to my earlier prediction made on Monday? THAT'S EXACTLY WHAT PRETERISM IS DOING!

If I say, "It's gonna rain soon" & 16 days pass before it rains, was my prediction wrong? It depends upon an individual's definition of "soon". GOD'S definition of 'soon' is evidently different from man's. THAT IS REINFORCED BY THE FACT THAT THE PROPHESIED EVENTS HAVEN'T YET OCCURRED ! ! There's just NO getting around THAT!

I suggest that you realize Gentry & Co. are quacks, just out to sell boox, and that SCRIPTURE AND HISTORY prove their bunk wrong, and that you dump that false doctrine at once!

No mark of the beast has come yet, since the beast himself hasn't, but GOD'S spiritual mark is upon every Christian.

 

While we disagree, I have to give you credit for providing Scriptural support for your view. This doesn't prove it was a literal mark After all, the entire passage is obviously filled with symbolism. Only those Jews who aligned their hands and minds with the Old Covenant system were "marked" for access into the Temple. It comes down to Temple worship.

I don't assign symbolism to every Scripture, but I do recognize it when I read it. To deny the symbolism leads to a wrong understanding of what is being said.

I bounce this ball right back to you. How can Jesus say these events were "soon", His disciples understood Him to mean "soon", and you say He is wrong? Likewise, how can you say all the time indicators that prove the events prophesied were to take place "soon", "shortly", that He is "at the door" all point to events that were supposed to be 2,000 years in their future? That dog simply doesn't hunt. You can holler "history" all you want, but the history of AD 70 is precisely when these events came to pass.

Your "rain" analogies are apples to oranges. Preterism says that specific prophecies were fulfilled in specific events. Now, are you finally ready to give up on this "Futurist Fantasy" and take Scripture at its Word? At the very least, are you ready to simply agree to disagree?

 

After all, you're applying the "great pret escape", assigning a "figurative/symbolic" status to Scriptures that, when coupled with history & reality, prove preterism false.

Like most prets, you apply symbolism selectively to passages that prove preterism false.

No, those prophesied eschatological events DIDN'T happen then. What DID happen was the prophesied destruction of J & the temple, the culmination of the "days of vengeance" Jesus pronounced against that generation of Jews who murdered Him. Much-greater punishment came a coupla generations later when the Romans under Hadrian booted the Jews outta their land. You may read the same history boox I have, & in NONE of them will you find the fulfillment of the judgments of the seals, trumpets, or vials, and CERTAINLY no return of JESUS!

I will disagree for as long as you promote that pret garbage. Rev. 19:11-21 **PROVES** that the beast has NOT yet come, so there's been NO marka the beast yet. Had the beast already come, he'd be in power now, or Jesus woulda come & disposed of him. The beast CERTAINLY WAS NOT NERO ! ! You can chuck that trash right now!

Other Readers, what do YOU say? Based on the evidence presented in this,& several other threads, is preterism true or false?

 

Based off Scripture these events are not fulfilled. Besides those with the gift of prophecy are all saying the same thing, it’s in stereo across all denominations.

America is going to be destroyed economically, many say through a natural disaster and by war, and worldwide communism will be established.

Buying and selling is a government approved activity under communism. They will use war and famine to bring defiant nations under control.
Stalin starved millions of Ukrainians in their homes, preventing them even from going out into the fields.
What is coming is a fully managed economy, managed down to the last person.

 

I think the rapture will occur before the beast comes to power, as God said He will keep His church from the hour of trial which will come upon THE WHOLE WORLD. This will be the great trib, which will occur once the beast is in power & institutes the mark of the beast to have economic control, especially over any who oppose him.

As for America, we must remember that many Americans are descended from the "lost 10 tribes" of Israel, as are many Western Europeans, and God's gonna punish them for not worshipping Him properly, and sinning so much. But he WON'T let them be destroyed. Also, the USA still has more Jews than Israel, with a large number of them in govt. office.

And here's more food for thought. When God told David thru Nathan that his dynasty would be established forever, God also said- 2 Samuel 7:10 Moreover I will appoint a place for My people Israel, and will plant them, that they may dwell in a place of their own and move no more; nor shall the sons of wickedness oppress them anymore, as previously,

Remember, when God said this, the Israelis were in the "Promised Land", living fairly-securely under their greatest military king, with no thought of moving!

Christians already have GOD'S mark, which is spiritual, ensuring our citizenship in God's kingdom, both now, & when it's set up as a physical kingdom which will eliminate all other kingfoms, as per the vision He showed Daniel of the stone cut without hands knocking down the statue representing the world's great empires & growing til it filled the whole earth.

 

Your refusal to acknowledge the symbolism in prophecy - especially in Revelation - is your great escape. You use that deliberate blindness to back up your repeated claims that the prophesied events haven't happened yet.

Like most Futurists, you insist that most symbolic passages must be fulfilled literally. I do not just select certain passages to prove the truth of Preterism. I prove Preterism is true because from the time indicators in Scripture and the obvious symbolism.

You say "No, they haven't happened", then I say "yes, they have happened", and then we repeat our arguments. You are right that the Days of Vengeance came to pass, but what you fail to recognize is that the "Days of Vengeance" is exactly the same thing prophesied in Revelation. As I've told you many times, Jesus didn't literally return, but He "came in judgment" upon Israel in AD 70.

As I've told you before, that passage is entirely symbolic. I am not disputing what history books record. I am disputing your interpretation of "End Times" prophecies. You only prove your point to those who already believe in the Futurist view. Actually, you only state why you hold the views you do. I do not accept your arguments as proof any more than you accept my arguments as proof. Yet, anyone with an unbiased view will see the logic in the Preterist view.

I thought you were going to rest your case. We can argue our views until the cows come home, and neither of us is likely to change the other's view. What do you say we call this a draw for this discussion?

 

Remember a few years back when the oil price was artificially jacked up, and the excuse was “ We are stress testing the world economy “.

Covid and the global political response was “ Compliance testing “. Testing how compliant the world population is. Answer, very compliant.

If you look at the great global effort of integration and interdependency, you can already see a global beast of a system in place.

Global control that far exceeds national sovereignty.

You must see the scripture in the light of present developments, where every tribe and nation is coming under control of global governance. Which has never happened before.

All people, Great and poor are integrated into the system in scripture, but this is precisely what the Chinese social credit system is.

We have seen many people whose public profiles have been deleted by big tech, their payment gateways shut down with their business, they have been made non entities.

Is it just coincidence that 5 or 6 platforms shut someone down at the same time, and 3 or 4 banking gateways also prevent payment to those people.
The beast system is now in place.

People might say that Peter and Paul were the two witnesses that died under the same persecution of Nero, but I believe these are prefigurements.

What is described in Revelation does not fit with the historical record.

 

Thank you for your comments. While we do indeed see a "global beast of a system in place" today, I do not believe it's the same as the Beast of Revelation. You are right that we should be very concerned about how the world governments are forcing people into compliance. The U.S. looks a lot more like Nazi Germany today than 20 years ago.

I do not believe that the persecution under Nero was just a foreshadow of prophecy. I believe Revelation (as well as the Olivet Discourse and other "End Times" prophecies) foretold the end of the Old Covenant system. The Great Tribulation was not worldwide, but described conditions in Israel from AD 66-70. IMHO, the Beast was Rome/Nero, and the False Prophet was Apostate Israel. I provided more details about the Mark of the Beast in #6. I could go on, but you didn't post your response looking for a detailed summary of Preterist views. Blessings upon you and yours.