The GOD that refuses to save

[atpollard]

My point is that all of the unsaved do not hate the Lord. These people who are blind spiritually, do serve the Lord in the flesh, no doubt devoted to Him

When Israel split into the Northern and Southern Kingdoms, the Southern Kingdom obeyed the commands of God and worshiped God where and how God had commanded (when they DID obey). In contrast, the Northern Kingdom created a "god" that only 'sort-of' resembled the True God, they rolled in a lot of ideas from their pagan neighbors, and they worshiped this god of their creation.

Can one honestly say that worshiping an idol - a god of your creation made in an image that pleases YOU - is really "loving the ONE TRUE GOD" in any sense of the word? Are "unsaved church-goers" not really worshiping a man-made idol that they have named "Jesus"?

[I have to wonder if that might not be worse than just worshiping a pagan deity.]

I think that worshiping 'evil' and calling it god probably qualifies as hating God.

 

[Silverhair]

When Israel split into the Northern and Southern Kingdoms, the Southern Kingdom obeyed the commands of God and worshiped God where and how God had commanded (when they DID obey). In contrast, the Northern Kingdom created a "god" that only 'sort-of' resembled the True God, they rolled in a lot of ideas from their pagan neighbors, and they worshiped this god of their creation.

Can one honestly say that worshiping an idol - a god of your creation made in an image that pleases YOU - is really "loving the ONE TRUE GOD" in any sense of the word? Are "unsaved church-goers" not really worshiping a man-made idol that they have named "Jesus"?

[I have to wonder if that might not be worse than just worshiping a pagan deity.]

I think that worshiping 'evil' and calling it god probably qualifies as hating God.

Here is a thought for you. What if one of those other groups, JW, Mormon, RCC etc were actually worshiping God and it was us that were in the wrong? Would we know it? No, because we would think we were right. That is where the problem comes in when we talk to someone from a different viewpoint.

 

[atpollard]

Calvinists are the ones that say they have no free will so you cannot even say that anything you stand for is really true as you have been determined to think that way. Remember it is your WCF / LBCF and TULIP that set your standard.

... and that is why it is wrong to try and tell other people what they believe.

 

[AustinC]

Yes I agree that God gives us the strength to persevere. Those that are already in Christ Jesus. Persevere "Continue in a course of action even in the face of difficulty or with little or no indication of success."

Those that trust in Christ Jesus are made alive.
Eph_2:8-9 by grace saved through faith
Rom_3:20-22 righteousness of God, through faith
Rom_3:27-28 justified by faith apart from the law.
Gal_2:16 justified by faith not by the works

Only in your theology is faith a work, so if anyone is wrong it is you. You are not just in disagreement with me but also with the word of God.

How is it that you get things so utterly twisted and wrong, Silverhair? Honestly, you say the exact opposite of what I have said when you claim I have said it.
In my theology, based entirely on scripture, faith is a gift given by God's grace, not an action performed by man's will.
You twist scripture and say what the Bible does not say when you state: "Those that trust in Christ Jesus are made alive." Your statement is not only false, it is graceless and man-centered.
Look at what the text actually says so that you realize you are wrong.
Ephesians 2:4-5
But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved—

So, notice and know this very carefully. You cannot trust in Jesus to be made alive. You cannot do this because you are spiritually dead in your trespasses.
Silverhair, the text says it is NOT you. It is GOD who makes you alive...not you. You don't trust Jesus first and then be made alive as you have claimed. You are demonstratably wrong. Entirely wrong and you have abused scripture in your statement. Everyone reading this can see your error.

 

[atpollard]

Here is a thought for you. What if one of those other groups, JW, Mormon, RCC etc were actually worshiping God and it was us that were in the wrong? Would we know it? No, because we would think we were right. That is where the problem comes in when we talk to someone from a different viewpoint.

If I pray sincerely to my Golden Idol, does the blood of Jesus cover me?
(You appear to be saying that it does, so I am asking directly to provide an opportunity for you to clarify your beliefs.)

 

[AustinC]

One of these days you need to actually study free will theology. Then you will know. What you have said here isn't even close. It looks like you have taken something you disagree with and created a caricature of it so as to demonize it in the worst possible sense. Whatever it is it is far from reality.

Hey Rev, I grew up free will and spent the majority of my life in free will. God graciously showed me scripture that is irrefutable to show me my error and my self-centered thinking about God. The great thing about God is that he saves people despite the horririble teachings that came with the slight glimmer of truth. This is why Paul rejoiced in the gospel even if it was preached by theological nincompoops who imagined they chose God rather than God choosing them.
So, since I attended a free will Bible Institute for three years, I am confident I know the theology. Not only do I know it, I know it's wrong.

 

[Revmitchell]

So, since I attended a free will Bible Institute for three years, I am confident I know the theology. Not only do I know it, I know it's wrong.

Well either you don't know it or you are creating a caricature of it. One is ignorant and the other is dishonest. There is nothing you say about our view that has been correct thus far. That is fact.

 

[Silverhair]

... and that is why it is wrong to try and tell other people what they believe.

Not trying to tell you what you believe, just telling you what the docs of the calvinist theology say. You may not even trust the calvinist docs.

 

[SavedByGrace]

When Israel split into the Northern and Southern Kingdoms, the Southern Kingdom obeyed the commands of God and worshiped God where and how God had commanded (when they DID obey). In contrast, the Northern Kingdom created a "god" that only 'sort-of' resembled the True God, they rolled in a lot of ideas from their pagan neighbors, and they worshiped this god of their creation.

Can one honestly say that worshiping an idol - a god of your creation made in an image that pleases YOU - is really "loving the ONE TRUE GOD" in any sense of the word? Are "unsaved church-goers" not really worshiping a man-made idol that they have named "Jesus"?

[I have to wonder if that might not be worse than just worshiping a pagan deity.]

I think that worshiping 'evil' and calling it god probably qualifies as hating God.

I have asked before and ask again. Do the nuns and monks in the RCC live daily hating God? They are probably not saved and think that they are Justified by their good works. But I doubt very much that they hate the Lord

 

[Silverhair]

If I pray sincerely to my Golden Idol, does the blood of Jesus cover me?
(You appear to be saying that it does, so I am asking directly to provide an opportunity for you to clarify your beliefs.)

That is not what I said so another strawman from you. If you believe a theology that is contrary to the bible are you following a false God?

 

[atpollard]

One cannot be unable and yet freely make a choice. That said dead men, like lazerus dead, cannot accept or reject anything, anyone or God.

People, it seems to me, are spiritually as dead as Lazarus to the things of God ... but we are VERY MUCH alive to the things of the World (those "little foxes" that draw us away from God and charm us with little 'gods' that sparkle and delight and promise so much, while only delivering misery and death as they draw us deeper into slavery to the world. It is as Romans 1 warns: men desire and God gives them over to ....

We are not corpses, we are "un-life". Animated corpses empowered by the opposite of life and drawn ever deeper into "un-life".

So we are definitely free to make a choice ... and we ALWAYS freely chose against God. (Hence the need for GRACE and DRAW and a NEW HEART).
YMMV (but mine didn't).

 

[Revmitchell]

People, it seems to me, are spiritually as dead as Lazarus to the things of God ... but we are VERY MUCH alive to the things of the World (those "little foxes" that draw us away from God and charm us with little 'gods' that sparkle and delight and promise so much, while only delivering misery and death as they draw us deeper into slavery to the world. It is as Romans 1 warns: men desire and God gives them over to ....

We are not corpses, we are "un-life". Animated corpses empowered by the opposite of life and drawn ever deeper into "un-life".

So we are definitely free to make a choice ... and we ALWAYS freely chose against God. (Hence the need for GRACE and DRAW and a NEW HEART).
YMMV (but mine didn't).

No no, we must have the ability to choose God or not choose God for it to be freely.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

They want salvation on their terms. That's the free will mantra. "Let me mull it over and consider the terms. If they favor me and I get blessing and prosperity, I will take it. If I don't get what I want, I will reject it.
In both cases, God sends them to hell. No negotiations. God either saves you and makes you a slave to righteousness or you die as a slave to sin.

thats called pride,

Jesus said we must become poor in spirit to enter the kingdom.

That takes free will..

 

[atpollard]

If you believe a theology that is contrary to the bible are you following a false God?

Sometimes yes and sometimes no.
(strictly my opinion, God alone gets the final say).

I do not believe that one can deny the Christ and be His Sheep, saved by His blood. That would be "damnable heresy". All roads do not lead to God ... Islam does not worship God, but "a god". However, a Doctrine of Grace hating, semi-Pelagian, like yourself still has hope!

 

[atpollard]

No no, we must have the ability to choose God or not choose God for it to be freely.

I agree.
We do not choose freely.
We are irresistibly drawn into His love.

Soli Deo Gloria!

 

[Revmitchell]

I agree.
We do not choose freely.
We are irresistibly drawn into His love.

Soli Deo Gloria!

Wait....you just said we are free to make a choice.

 

[atpollard]

That is not what I said so another strawman from you. If you believe a theology that is contrary to the bible are you following a false God?

you said: "Here is a thought for you. What if one of those other groups, JW, Mormon, RCC etc were actually worshiping God and it was us that were in the wrong? Would we know it? No, because we would think we were right. That is where the problem comes in when we talk to someone from a different viewpoint."

What was your point: TRUTH is unknowable?
(then discussion is pointless).

If you are a Mormon and worship the gods on planet "whatever" that you plan to one day ascent and join as a fellow God ... does that "bad theology" mean you are not worshiping Jesus Christ and the One True God? Hell Yes!

So I repeat my NOT A STRAWMAN question:

If I pray sincerely to my Golden Idol, does the blood of Jesus cover me?
(You appear to be saying that it does, so I am asking directly to provide an opportunity for you to clarify your beliefs.)

 

[atpollard]

Wait....you just said we are free to make a choice.

No, I said that we must be free to choose if our choice is free.
Our choice is not free.

We were born slaves to sin (we had no free choice).
God laid claim to us and purchased us (we had no free choice in that either).

There was NOTHING free about our choice. We were born slaves and purchased by God. The POTS do not get a vote.

 

[Revmitchell]

No, I said that we must be free to choose if our choice is free.
Our choice is not free.

We were born slaves to sin (we had no free choice).
God laid claim to us and purchased us (we had no free choice in that either).

There was NOTHING free about our choice. We were born slaves and purchased by God. The POTS do not get a vote.

"So we are definitely free to make a choice ... and we ALWAYS freely chose against God."

Post # 91

 

[AustinC]

Well either you don't know it or you are creating a caricature of it. One is ignorant and the other is dishonest. There is nothing you say about our view that has been correct thus far. That is fact.

Rev, does it occur to you that your specific teaching may be a hybrid peculiar to to you?
What is true is that free will assumes humans choose God or reject God's gift. They believe it is a general gift that men must reach out and take or reject. God certainly gives them the gospel message, but each individual has to independently choose.
The divergence comes in what happens after choosing or saying the sinners prayer. For some, the one confession seals the deal and salvation is secured. For others (and I believe this group is more intellectually honest) the struggle is in constant choosing to have faith or not have faith so as to lose salvation. This group takes free will to its ultimate source. These would be Nazarenes, Weslyians and Methodists as well as most Mennonites, Amish and Hutterites. I am sure there are more.
So, what I am saying is historically accurate, but perhaps not your exact experience.