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Featured The GOD that refuses to save

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by atpollard, Mar 15, 2022.

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  1. atpollard

    atpollard Well-Known Member

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    When Israel split into the Northern and Southern Kingdoms, the Southern Kingdom obeyed the commands of God and worshiped God where and how God had commanded (when they DID obey). In contrast, the Northern Kingdom created a "god" that only 'sort-of' resembled the True God, they rolled in a lot of ideas from their pagan neighbors, and they worshiped this god of their creation.

    Can one honestly say that worshiping an idol - a god of your creation made in an image that pleases YOU - is really "loving the ONE TRUE GOD" in any sense of the word? Are "unsaved church-goers" not really worshiping a man-made idol that they have named "Jesus"?

    [I have to wonder if that might not be worse than just worshiping a pagan deity.]

    I think that worshiping 'evil' and calling it god probably qualifies as hating God.
     
    #81 atpollard, Mar 16, 2022
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  2. Silverhair

    Silverhair Well-Known Member

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    Here is a thought for you. What if one of those other groups, JW, Mormon, RCC etc were actually worshiping God and it was us that were in the wrong? Would we know it? No, because we would think we were right. That is where the problem comes in when we talk to someone from a different viewpoint.
     
    #82 Silverhair, Mar 16, 2022
  3. atpollard

    atpollard Well-Known Member

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    ... and that is why it is wrong to try and tell other people what they believe.
     
    #83 atpollard, Mar 16, 2022
  4. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

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    How is it that you get things so utterly twisted and wrong, Silverhair? Honestly, you say the exact opposite of what I have said when you claim I have said it.
    In my theology, based entirely on scripture, faith is a gift given by God's grace, not an action performed by man's will.
    You twist scripture and say what the Bible does not say when you state: "Those that trust in Christ Jesus are made alive." Your statement is not only false, it is graceless and man-centered.
    Look at what the text actually says so that you realize you are wrong.
    Ephesians 2:4-5
    But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved—

    So, notice and know this very carefully. You cannot trust in Jesus to be made alive. You cannot do this because you are spiritually dead in your trespasses.
    Silverhair, the text says it is NOT you. It is GOD who makes you alive...not you. You don't trust Jesus first and then be made alive as you have claimed. You are demonstratably wrong. Entirely wrong and you have abused scripture in your statement. Everyone reading this can see your error.
     
    #84 AustinC, Mar 16, 2022
  5. atpollard

    atpollard Well-Known Member

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    If I pray sincerely to my Golden Idol, does the blood of Jesus cover me?
    (You appear to be saying that it does, so I am asking directly to provide an opportunity for you to clarify your beliefs.)
     
    #85 atpollard, Mar 16, 2022
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  6. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

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    Hey Rev, I grew up free will and spent the majority of my life in free will. God graciously showed me scripture that is irrefutable to show me my error and my self-centered thinking about God. The great thing about God is that he saves people despite the horririble teachings that came with the slight glimmer of truth. This is why Paul rejoiced in the gospel even if it was preached by theological nincompoops who imagined they chose God rather than God choosing them.
    So, since I attended a free will Bible Institute for three years, I am confident I know the theology. Not only do I know it, I know it's wrong.
     
    #86 AustinC, Mar 16, 2022
  7. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell Well-Known Member
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    Well either you don't know it or you are creating a caricature of it. One is ignorant and the other is dishonest. There is nothing you say about our view that has been correct thus far. That is fact.
     
    #87 Revmitchell, Mar 16, 2022
  8. Silverhair

    Silverhair Well-Known Member

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    Not trying to tell you what you believe, just telling you what the docs of the calvinist theology say. You may not even trust the calvinist docs.
     
    #88 Silverhair, Mar 16, 2022
  9. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

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    I have asked before and ask again. Do the nuns and monks in the RCC live daily hating God? They are probably not saved and think that they are Justified by their good works. But I doubt very much that they hate the Lord
     
    #89 SavedByGrace, Mar 16, 2022
  10. Silverhair

    Silverhair Well-Known Member

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    That is not what I said so another strawman from you. If you believe a theology that is contrary to the bible are you following a false God?
     
    #90 Silverhair, Mar 16, 2022
  11. atpollard

    atpollard Well-Known Member

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    People, it seems to me, are spiritually as dead as Lazarus to the things of God ... but we are VERY MUCH alive to the things of the World (those "little foxes" that draw us away from God and charm us with little 'gods' that sparkle and delight and promise so much, while only delivering misery and death as they draw us deeper into slavery to the world. It is as Romans 1 warns: men desire and God gives them over to ....

    We are not corpses, we are "un-life". Animated corpses empowered by the opposite of life and drawn ever deeper into "un-life".

    So we are definitely free to make a choice ... and we ALWAYS freely chose against God. (Hence the need for GRACE and DRAW and a NEW HEART).
    YMMV (but mine didn't).
     
    #91 atpollard, Mar 16, 2022
  12. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell Well-Known Member
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    No no, we must have the ability to choose God or not choose God for it to be freely.
     
    #92 Revmitchell, Mar 16, 2022
  13. Eternally Grateful

    Eternally Grateful Active Member

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    thats called pride,

    Jesus said we must become poor in spirit to enter the kingdom.

    That takes free will..
     
    #93 Eternally Grateful, Mar 16, 2022
  14. atpollard

    atpollard Well-Known Member

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    Sometimes yes and sometimes no.
    (strictly my opinion, God alone gets the final say).

    I do not believe that one can deny the Christ and be His Sheep, saved by His blood. That would be "damnable heresy". All roads do not lead to God ... Islam does not worship God, but "a god". However, a Doctrine of Grace hating, semi-Pelagian, like yourself still has hope! :Tongue :Roflmao
     
    #94 atpollard, Mar 16, 2022
  15. atpollard

    atpollard Well-Known Member

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    I agree.
    We do not choose freely.
    We are irresistibly drawn into His love.

    Soli Deo Gloria!
     
    #95 atpollard, Mar 16, 2022
  16. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell Well-Known Member
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    Wait....you just said we are free to make a choice.
     
    #96 Revmitchell, Mar 16, 2022
  17. atpollard

    atpollard Well-Known Member

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    you said: "Here is a thought for you. What if one of those other groups, JW, Mormon, RCC etc were actually worshiping God and it was us that were in the wrong? Would we know it? No, because we would think we were right. That is where the problem comes in when we talk to someone from a different viewpoint."

    What was your point: TRUTH is unknowable?
    (then discussion is pointless).

    If you are a Mormon and worship the gods on planet "whatever" that you plan to one day ascent and join as a fellow God ... does that "bad theology" mean you are not worshiping Jesus Christ and the One True God? Hell Yes!

    So I repeat my NOT A STRAWMAN question:

    If I pray sincerely to my Golden Idol, does the blood of Jesus cover me?
    (You appear to be saying that it does, so I am asking directly to provide an opportunity for you to clarify your beliefs.)
     
    #97 atpollard, Mar 16, 2022
  18. atpollard

    atpollard Well-Known Member

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    No, I said that we must be free to choose if our choice is free.
    Our choice is not free.

    We were born slaves to sin (we had no free choice).
    God laid claim to us and purchased us (we had no free choice in that either).

    There was NOTHING free about our choice. We were born slaves and purchased by God. The POTS do not get a vote.
     
    #98 atpollard, Mar 16, 2022
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  19. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell Well-Known Member
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    "So we are definitely free to make a choice ... and we ALWAYS freely chose against God."

    Post # 91
     
    #99 Revmitchell, Mar 16, 2022
  20. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

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    Rev, does it occur to you that your specific teaching may be a hybrid peculiar to to you?
    What is true is that free will assumes humans choose God or reject God's gift. They believe it is a general gift that men must reach out and take or reject. God certainly gives them the gospel message, but each individual has to independently choose.
    The divergence comes in what happens after choosing or saying the sinners prayer. For some, the one confession seals the deal and salvation is secured. For others (and I believe this group is more intellectually honest) the struggle is in constant choosing to have faith or not have faith so as to lose salvation. This group takes free will to its ultimate source. These would be Nazarenes, Weslyians and Methodists as well as most Mennonites, Amish and Hutterites. I am sure there are more.
    So, what I am saying is historically accurate, but perhaps not your exact experience.
     
    #100 AustinC, Mar 16, 2022
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