The GOD that refuses to save

[Silverhair]

If God foreknew that Judas would be a traitor, Judas became a traitor of necessity, and it was not in the power of Judas or of any creature to act differently, or to change his will, from that which God had foreseen. It is true that Judas acted willingly, and not under compulsion, but his willing was the work of God, brought into being by His omnipotence, like everything else.… If you do not allow that the thing which God foreknows is necessarily brought to pass, you take away faith and the fear of God, you undermine all the Divine promises and threatenings, and so you deny Deity itself!

Peter Sammons, Reprobation and God’s Sovereignty: Recovering a Biblical Doctrine (Grand Rapids, MI: Kregel Academic, 2022), 140.

And so what does this have to do with
1Ti 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior,
1Ti 2:4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

God desires all men to be saved. Still fits into the context.

You seem to think that God knowing that something is going to happen is the same as Him causing it to happen. This may shock you but God is sovereign and because He is sovereign He can and does allow man to have a true free will. Remember God is Omniscient.

I do find it funny that calvinists insist that God is sovereign then say but He can't do such and such. Doesn't seem like the calvinist God is really sovereign.

 

[DaveXR650]

You seem to think that God knowing that something is going to happen is the same as Him causing it to happen. This may shock you but God is sovereign and because He is sovereign He can and does allow man to have a true free will. Remember God is Omniscient.

I do find it funny that calvinists insist that God is sovereign then say but He can't do such and such. Doesn't seem like the calvinist God is really sovereign.

I think non-Calvinists mean well and are only trying to defend God's honor when they insist that man's free will has to be truly free or God is to blame for what happens to them. The problem with this is where do you stop? God has chosen to create an existence for us. You look around and it is not fair. There is no way to come up with any other conclusion once you start down that path. Calvinists want to allow God to be God, and not judge him according to our standards. That is where Calvinism is right and the free willers are wrong.

At the same time, the Bible is very clear that God wants to save some and when we read about election and predestination it's confusing. But we have direct promises that anyone who comes to Christ will be saved. If you read the OP and Romans 9:16 a Calvinist takes "It is not of him that willeth...but of him that showeth mercy" just to mean what it says - that is isn't the will of man that's important but God and his mercy. That is not intended to make it seem that there are those who truly want to come to God but he won't let them, just that man's will is not what runs the world. If you hear God's call and are under conviction, and you choose to come to Christ all a Calvinist is saying is that you have had the operation of the Holy Spirit on you already and have been effectually called and regenerated. Calvinists insist God gets the glory for this, not us but "All that the Father gives to me" is followed by "And he who comes to me I will in no wise cast out". So if you come, of course it feels to you like it was your choice, and in that sense it was. That's what Spurgeon thought too about his own salvation until he really thought about what had happened.

 

[Silverhair]

I think non-Calvinists mean well and are only trying to defend God's honor when they insist that man's free will has to be truly free or God is to blame for what happens to them. The problem with this is where do you stop? God has chosen to create an existence for us. You look around and it is not fair. There is no way to come up with any other conclusion once you start down that path. Calvinists want to allow God to be God, and not judge him according to our standards. That is where Calvinism is right and the free willers are wrong.

Well Dave if you insist that God has created an existence such as calvinists want to have it then you have to agree that whatever happens here is the result of God wanting it that way. You do not want man to have any free will so that requires that whatever God has decreed is what happens and since the WCF / LBCF have God decreeing all things. "From all eternity and by the completely wise and holy purpose of his own will, God has freely and unchangeably ordained whatever happens." including evil. But then you go, no no no we can't have Him be responsible for all things, just the things we want Him to be responsible for. Can you say hypocrite. If you want God to decree all things then that requires that He is responsible for all the evil in the world. Or are you going to say that I just do not understand calvinism. The problem is that I do understand calvinism.

Calvinists keep forgetting that God is sovereign, He is not beholding to the restrictions that some calvinists want to put on Him. Calvinists do not allow God to be sovereign but just pretend to do so and then wave their hands when people do not agree with their view of His sovereignty.

At the same time, the Bible is very clear that God wants to save some and when we read about election and predestination it's confusing. But we have direct promises that anyone who comes to Christ will be saved. If you read the OP and Romans 9:16 a Calvinist takes "It is not of him that willeth...but of him that showeth mercy" just to mean what it says - that is isn't the will of man that's important but God and his mercy. That is not intended to make it seem that there are those who truly want to come to God but he won't let them, just that man's will is not what runs the world.

How can you write what you just did when you hold to a calvinist theology? Under your theology it is impossible for anyone to want to come to trust Christ Jesus unless God has decided to make them believe. So for you to use the language you do is, to say the least, disingenuous. Remember under calvinism it is not even you that believes, it is God that believes for you.

If you hear God's call and are under conviction, and you choose to come to Christ all a Calvinist is saying is that you have had the operation of the Holy Spirit on you already and have been effectually called and regenerated. Calvinists insist God gets the glory for this, not us but "All that the Father gives to me" is followed by "And he who comes to me I will in no wise cast out". So if you come, of course it feels to you like it was your choice, and in that sense it was. That's what Spurgeon thought too about his own salvation until he really thought about what had happened.

What amazes me about calvinists is that they seem to miss the obvious. The Holy Spirit convicts, we both agree on that. But you have taken the conviction of the Holy Spirit and turned it into Him forcing people to trust in God. That's the what you call Irresistible Grace. So if under calvinism you do not get this Irresistible Grace because you are not part of Unconditional Elect then you do not partake of the Limited Atonement. And then you say that those that are not saved are not saved because they did not want to be. Tell me again how does that work.

Sorry Dave I can not set aside reality so that I can accept what I would have to accept so that I could believe calvinism. Calvinism to me is more fantasy than reality.

 

[AustinC]

Calvinists keep forgetting that God is sovereign,

 

[Reformed1689]

Yep, there it is again we are saved by grace and why, because we believe. Austin just trust what the bible says and it will lead you back to a correct understanding of the way of salvation.

The way you just explained it is works based.

 

[Reformed1689]

And so what does this have to do with
1Ti 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior,
1Ti 2:4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

God desires all men to be saved. Still fits into the context.

You seem to think that God knowing that something is going to happen is the same as Him causing it to happen. This may shock you but God is sovereign and because He is sovereign He can and does allow man to have a true free will. Remember God is Omniscient.

I do find it funny that calvinists insist that God is sovereign then say but He can't do such and such. Doesn't seem like the calvinist God is really sovereign.

First, I don't think you know the meaning of sovereign.

Second, you realize I agree with you that there is free will. But what does that mean? We are free to choose what we DESIRE. Nobody seeks God. That's what the Bible says. Nobody chooses God on their own. John says that God has to DRAW the individual otherwise they will not, let me repeat WILL NOT come to him. But all that the Father gives WILL come. That is what Jesus said. So do you disagree with Jesus?

You are really good at isolating verses and taking them out of context and then accusing Calvinists of not believing the verse.

 

[DaveXR650]

Well Dave if you insist that God has created an existence such as calvinists want to have it then you have to agree that whatever happens here is the result of God wanting it that wa

I'm saying that you need to look around, the world is not fair whether you are a Calvinist or not. And God is all powerful and yet is what it is. You figure it out.

. Remember under calvinism it is not even you that believes, it is God that believes for you.

Some might believe that but the WCF writers did not. That statement is factually not true.

Tell me again how does that work.

You did alright. Now you tell me how in a world where most people don't ever hear the gospel, where many live lives scarred by violence, evil upbringing and others are raised in church with loving parents and the decision is up to your free will-that that is fair? The only difference is that you insist on putting man in the driver's seat when he is not - in either system. You think this board is bad, you ever bring that free will fairness argument up to an atheist and he will hand your head to you.

The bottom line of Calvinism is that we need to let God be God. Every command to believe, do works, be good, be kind and so forth is to be done by us. He runs this planet and it is run according to his will and yes, that takes into account the way he has allowed us to mess it up according to his sovereignty. But the details and how this unfolds is completely up to him.

 

[kyredneck]

You are really good at isolating verses and taking them out of context and then accusing Calvinists of not believing the verse.

...he's not the first such 'Calvinist slayer' we've had on board here. Seems to be a common tactic for those afflicted with CDS.

 

[Silverhair]

I note that you still act like a child. grow up.

 

[Reformed1689]

Calvinists keep forgetting that God is sovereign, He is not beholding to the restrictions that some calvinists want to put on Him. Calvinists do not allow God to be sovereign but just pretend to do so and then wave their hands when people do not agree with their view of His sovereignty.

Um, Calvinists are the ones that champion the sovereignty of God.

sovereign
[ˈsäv(ə)rən]
NOUN

1. a supreme ruler, especially a monarch.
   "the Emperor became the first Japanese sovereign to visit Britain"
   synonyms:
   ruler · monarch · supreme ruler · Crown · crowned head · head of state ·
   supreme · absolute · unlimited · unrestricted · unrestrained ·
   ADJECTIVE
   1. possessing supreme or ultimate power.
      "in modern democracies the people's will is in theory sovereign"
      synonyms:
      supreme · absolute · unlimited · unrestricted · unrestrained ·
      [more]

So not sure what in the world you are talking about. It is the non-calvinist that wishes to take God's sovereignty away from him and give man more power than God.

 

[atpollard]

I am always amused by calvinists that say God is sovereign and then maintain that this sovereign God of theirs can not grant man a free will to turn and trust the gospel message.

Where is this person that said such a thing ... I only see YOU saying it!

I am amused by people that conflate what God can do ( anything except be untrue to his nature), with what the Word of God tells us God chose to do ... "And you were dead in your offenses and sins, in which you previously walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience. Among them we too all previously lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the rest. But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our wrongdoings, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the ages to come He might show the boundless riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them."

Now why don't you show me the verse that says God has chosen to "grant man a free will to turn and trust the gospel message" ... and when YOU say 'God can grant a man', you really mean "GOD HAS ALREADY GRANTED ALL MEN" (which denies John 6:44 and John 10:26 and Luke 8:10 and Matthew 16:17 and Acts of the Apostles 16:14).

 

[atpollard]

No. Whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

I agree.

Then comes the hard part ... who (so ever) wills? [and why do they so will?]
[enter human speculation and non-essential theology]

 

[atpollard]

If man is completely unable to do anything in trusting God, then why all the warnings and the commands to trust in God. Sort of a waste of time and effort if all God had to do was zap you with the trust ray and then you would be a good little Christian.

Why? ... so that men are without excuse.
(you conflate justification with sanctification ... the first is monergistic and the second is synergistic.)

 

[Silverhair]

The way you just explained it is works based.

So you don't trust in the bible. That is the problem with your theology

First, I don't think you know the meaning of sovereign.

Second, you realize I agree with you that there is free will. But what does that mean? We are free to choose what we DESIRE. Nobody seeks God. That's what the Bible says. Nobody chooses God on their own. John says that God has to DRAW the individual otherwise they will not, let me repeat WILL NOT come to him. But all that the Father gives WILL come. That is what Jesus said. So do you disagree with Jesus?

You are really good at isolating verses and taking them out of context and then accusing Calvinists of not believing the verse.

If you mean that I do not agree with your calvinist version of the sovereignty of God your right. You limit the sovereignty of God and then say that those the disagree with you are wrong. So it is you that does not know what sovereign means.

"We are free to choose what we DESIRE." I agree, why would people choose what they do not desire. You calvinist stumble over the words free will. You can not accept the fact that God has given man a free will so that he can make real choices.

I have pointed out to you before that Rom 3:10-18 is a Midrash. If you take the time to educate yourself on there use then you would understand why Paul included it in Romans. Here is a hint, both Jews and Greeks are all under sin.

When have I said the God does not draw people to Himself. Joh 12:32 makes that clear. You have just taken it to far and made it that those that are drawn must be saved. But lets look at what you have said in light of your theology; "John says that God has to DRAW the individual otherwise they will not, let me repeat WILL NOT come to him." That would be from Joh 6:44. And we know that Christ Jesus said He would draw all people to Himself. Joh 12:32 So if we look at you theology that holds to Irresistible Grace that would mean that all those drawn will come and add your Unconditional Election and now we have all those drawn being elected or saved and what we have is you are promoting universalism.

You say that I take verses out of context. Perhaps you should look in the mirror. As one that says God has given man a free will I have no problem with God drawing all to Himself. Context helps clear up any misunderstanding:
Joh 6:44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.
Joh 6:45 It is written in the prophets, 'AND THEY SHALL ALL BE TAUGHT BY GOD.' Therefore everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to Me.
And what are they learning
Eph 1:13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,

The ones that the Father gives the Son are those that have trusted in the gospel message. It really helps if you read. So I have to ask you; So do you disagree with Jesus? Do you disagree with the inspired text of the bible?

 

[Aaron]

I agree.

Then comes the hard part ... who (so ever) wills? [and why do they so will?]
[enter human speculation and non-essential theology]

The vessels of mercy, the elect, will by the grace of God. Philippians 2:13

 

[atpollard]

The vessels of mercy, the elect, will by the grace of God. Philippians 2:13

Wow, you sound like a Particular Baptist.

 

[Aaron]

Wow, you sound like a Particular Baptist.

More accurately, the Particular Baptists sound like me.

 

[atpollard]

You say that I take verses out of context. Perhaps you should look in the mirror. As one that says God has given man a free will I have no problem with God drawing all to Himself. Context helps clear up any misunderstanding:
Joh 6:44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.
Joh 6:45 It is written in the prophets, 'AND THEY SHALL ALL BE TAUGHT BY GOD.' Therefore everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to Me.

John 6 (context) [NASB]

41 So then the Jews were complaining about Him because He said, “I am the bread that came down out of heaven.”

42 And they were saying, “Is this not Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How does He now say, ‘I have come down out of heaven’?” 43 Jesus answered and said to them, “Stop complaining among yourselves. 44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day. 45 It is written in the Prophets: ‘AND THEY SHALL ALL BE TAUGHT OF GOD.’ Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father, comes to Me. 46 Not that anyone has seen the Father, except the One who is from God; He has seen the Father. 47 Truly, truly, I say to you, the one who believes has eternal life. 48 I am the bread of life. 49 Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and they died. 50 This is the bread that comes down out of heaven, so that anyone may eat from it and not die. 51 I am the living bread that came down out of heaven; if anyone eats from this bread, he will live forever; and the bread which I will give for the life of the world also is My flesh.”

52 Then the Jews began to argue with one another, saying, “How can this man give us His flesh to eat?” 53 So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in yourselves. 54 The one who eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day. 55 For My flesh is true food, and My blood is true drink. 56 The one who eats My flesh and drinks My blood remains in Me, and I in him. 57 Just as the living Father sent Me, and I live because of the Father, the one who eats Me, he also will live because of Me. 58 This is the bread that came down out of heaven, not as the fathers ate and died; the one who eats this bread will live forever.” ​

So you think that ALL of these people had been taught by the Father?
I think that only those DRAWN by the Father had been taught by the Father, THEY will ALL be raised on the last day.
As for the others ... John 10:26 and 1 Corinthians 2:14.

 

[Silverhair]

I'm saying that you need to look around, the world is not fair whether you are a Calvinist or not. And God is all powerful and yet is what it is. You figure it out.



Some might believe that but the WCF writers did not. That statement is factually not true.


You did alright. Now you tell me how in a world where most people don't ever hear the gospel, where many live lives scarred by violence, evil upbringing and others are raised in church with loving parents and the decision is up to your free will-that that is fair? The only difference is that you insist on putting man in the driver's seat when he is not - in either system. You think this board is bad, you ever bring that free will fairness argument up to an atheist and he will hand your head to you.

The bottom line of Calvinism is that we need to let God be God. Every command to believe, do works, be good, be kind and so forth is to be done by us. He runs this planet and it is run according to his will and yes, that takes into account the way he has allowed us to mess it up according to his sovereignty. But the details and how this unfolds is completely up to him.

Dave you keep going back to the fairness of God, not sure why as I have not said God has to be fair. What I have said is that God has to be JUST. If He is not just then He is not good and if He is not good then He is not God. He is God therefore He is good and because He is good He is just. For God to be just it requires that all be given an equal chance to know God and trust in Him. Read Rom 1:18-20 and see that God is, to use your words, fair. All men have the truth of creation before them, so as the bible say, they are without excuse.

Dave answer me this. Does a man have to believe in Christ Jesus before he is saved or does he believe in Christ Jesus after he is saved? If you say it is after he is saved then you would have God believing for you. Dave I did a search of these terms in the NKJV; through faith 17 times; by faith 40 times, unto faith 0 times, for faith 0 times. You may try different ways of searching but from what I have found FAITH is required before you are saved. Correct me if you think I am wrong.

Dave I have talked to many atheist’s but what I do not say is that God has to be fair, why would I? God has to be JUST and He is. The way I express it to someone is, as Christians we look to God and say “Thy will be done” and God looks at mankind and says “Thy will be done”. To use your words God is fair/just, He gives everyone the same chance to know of Him and to trust in Him but under calvinism God is most definitely not fair/just is He. Your version of God does not give everyone an equal chance to know of Him or to trust in Him. You have made God to be arbitrary. Your version of God is not the one found in the bible.

The bottom line is that we do need to let God be God. The problem is that under calvinism you want to tell God what He can or can not do.

 

[Reformed1689]

So you don't trust in the bible. That is the problem with your theology


If you mean that I do not agree with your calvinist version of the sovereignty of God your right. You limit the sovereignty of God and then say that those the disagree with you are wrong. So it is you that does not know what sovereign means.

"We are free to choose what we DESIRE." I agree, why would people choose what they do not desire. You calvinist stumble over the words free will. You can not accept the fact that God has given man a free will so that he can make real choices.

I have pointed out to you before that Rom 3:10-18 is a Midrash. If you take the time to educate yourself on there use then you would understand why Paul included it in Romans. Here is a hint, both Jews and Greeks are all under sin.

When have I said the God does not draw people to Himself. Joh 12:32 makes that clear. You have just taken it to far and made it that those that are drawn must be saved. But lets look at what you have said in light of your theology; "John says that God has to DRAW the individual otherwise they will not, let me repeat WILL NOT come to him." That would be from Joh 6:44. And we know that Christ Jesus said He would draw all people to Himself. Joh 12:32 So if we look at you theology that holds to Irresistible Grace that would mean that all those drawn will come and add your Unconditional Election and now we have all those drawn being elected or saved and what we have is you are promoting universalism.

You say that I take verses out of context. Perhaps you should look in the mirror. As one that says God has given man a free will I have no problem with God drawing all to Himself. Context helps clear up any misunderstanding:
Joh 6:44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.
Joh 6:45 It is written in the prophets, 'AND THEY SHALL ALL BE TAUGHT BY GOD.' Therefore everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to Me.
And what are they learning
Eph 1:13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,

The ones that the Father gives the Son are those that have trusted in the gospel message. It really helps if you read. So I have to ask you; So do you disagree with Jesus? Do you disagree with the inspired text of the bible?

No I mean you literally do not know what sovereign means. Your position is idiotic at best. You cherry pick verses and ignore large swaths of scripture to prop up your point of view.