Romans 9 doesn't prove Calvinism; it proves the oppositie

[Revmitchell]

Could as in have the option. I said nothing of ability.

If they don't have the ability then they do not have the option

 

[Reformed1689]

If they don't have the ability then they do not have the option

I disagree. But that would be another topic.

 

[Silverhair]

Ok, so it says whosoever will, great, who is it that will? None seek God.

Deu_4:29 seek the LORD your God, and you will find Him if you search for Him

Even those scattered among pagan nations can seek and find God.

2Ch_15:2 if you seek Him, He will let you find Him

Azariah brought the message of God to Asa that if the nation would seek Him they would find Him

Jer_29:13 'You will seek Me and find Me when you search for Me with all your heart.

When you suffer hardship, if you seek God you can find Him

Mat_7:7 "Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you.

Jesus to the disciples before they were saved tells them to keep Seeking God

Act_17:27 that they would seek God, if perhaps they might grope for Him and find Him

Paul, when he Addressed the Areopagus told the Greeks that if they seek the true God they could find Him

So from what the bible say it seem that man can seek God. As I have shown you before the text of Rom 3:10-18 is a Midrash. These 9 verses are a forthright condemnation of fallen man. But they say nothing about man’s will or his ability or inability to receive the gospel or to exercise faith.

You focus on the verses that you think support your view and ignore everything else.

 

[AustinC]

Deu_4:29 seek the LORD your God, and you will find Him if you search for Him

Even those scattered among pagan nations can seek and find God.

2Ch_15:2 if you seek Him, He will let you find Him

Azariah brought the message of God to Asa that if the nation would seek Him they would find Him

Jer_29:13 'You will seek Me and find Me when you search for Me with all your heart.

When you suffer hardship, if you seek God you can find Him

Mat_7:7 "Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you.

Jesus to the disciples before they were saved tells them to keep Seeking God

Act_17:27 that they would seek God, if perhaps they might grope for Him and find Him

Paul, when he Addressed the Areopagus told the Greeks that if they seek the true God they could find Him

So from what the bible say it seem that man can seek God. As I have shown you before the text of Rom 3:10-18 is a Midrash. These 9 verses are a forthright condemnation of fallen man. But they say nothing about man’s will or his ability or inability to receive the gospel or to exercise faith.

You focus on the verses that you think support your view and ignore everything else.

It makes me chuckle when you try to create a theology from isolated sentences in the Bible. Did you know that Muslims and Mormons do the same thing?

Now, every verse but one is directed to the chosen people of God, Israel. Therefore these verses do not make any argument for your theory. The verse in Acts where Paul is preaching to the Athenians is a surmising of Paul, not theology. If you want Paul's theology you can read Romans 1 and Romans 3.

So, your verses of which you imagine make your point, actually make no point for you. Will this dissuade you? Doubtful. It doesn't dissuade Muslims or Mormons.

 

[Silverhair]

Questionid Christ die as a ransom for all, or just the elect?

Austins answer The elect

So since Christ Jesus came only to save the Elect that must mean that only the elect were sinners, by your logic anyway.

1Ti_1:15 It is a trustworthy statement, deserving full acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners,

Mar 2:17 I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners.

So if everyone else is not a sinner, since God did not come to call them, then that would mean they are all saved? They would have to be the righteous ones that were not called. But that is not what the bible says is it.
Rom 3:23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God

But
Christ Jesus came to be the saviour of all not just a select few.
1Ti_2:6 who gave Himself as a ransom for all

And
It is by faith in Christ Jesus that a person is saved/justified
Rom_5:1 Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ

So
Anyone that will trust in Christ Jesus will be saved
Rom_3:28 For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law.

So either the bible is wrong or your theology is wrong.

I am sure you can look up these verses in context if you want, but the reality is that the bible is clear, your theology is wrong

 

[Silverhair]

It makes me chuckle when you try to create a theology from isolated sentences in the Bible. Did you know that Muslims and Mormons do the same thing?

Now, every verse but one is directed to the chosen people of God, Israel. Therefore these verses do not make any argument for your theory. The verse in Acts where Paul is preaching to the Athenians is a surmising of Paul, not theology. If you want Paul's theology you can read Romans 1 and Romans 3.

So, your verses of which you imagine make your point, actually make no point for you. Will this dissuade you? Doubtful. It doesn't dissuade Muslims or Mormons.

It makes me chuckle when you try to create a theology from isolated sentences in the Bible. You forgot to include calvinist in that group. Your whole theology is built on isolated verses.

 

[Reformed1689]

So since Christ Jesus came only to save the Elect that must mean that only the elect were sinners, by your logic anyway.

1Ti_1:15 It is a trustworthy statement, deserving full acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners,

Mar 2:17 I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners.

So if everyone else is not a sinner, since God did not come to call them, then that would mean they are all saved? They would have to be the righteous ones that were not called. But that is not what the bible says is it.
Rom 3:23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God

But
Christ Jesus came to be the saviour of all not just a select few.
1Ti_2:6 who gave Himself as a ransom for all

And
It is by faith in Christ Jesus that a person is saved/justified
Rom_5:1 Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ

So
Anyone that will trust in Christ Jesus will be saved
Rom_3:28 For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law.

So either the bible is wrong or your theology is wrong.

I am sure you can look up these verses in context if you want, but the reality is that the bible is clear, your theology is wrong

Notice it does not say all sinners.

 

[Silverhair]

WHO is the none referring to? If he does not WILL for any person to perish, nobody would perish.

If you take the time to look at the Greek it will help you understand this verse.
Boúlomai (G1014) expresses a merely passive desire, propensity, willingness, while thélō (G2309) expresses an active volition and purpose.

not G3361 willing G1014 (G5740) from NKJV
intending G1014 (G5740)

So, taking into consideration the meaning of Boúlomai (G1014) it would be better to understand G1014 in 2Pe:9 to read that God did not intend or want for any to perish. And this fits with what Paul wrote in 1Ti 2:3-4
1Ti 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior,
1Ti 2:4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

 

[Silverhair]

Notice it does not say all sinners.

You really struggle with the text of the bible don't you. You will go to any length to deny what the bible says in the hope that it justifies your theology.

If you have to work that hard to make your theology fit then it may be time you did a rethink about?

 

[Silverhair]

I called you humanist because you exemplify humanistic thought and philosophy. I have THOROUGHLY refuted your comments. Not Willing That Any Should Perish? You just don't like the truth of context and how that works. Or you can't grasp it, I don't know which. You are not wrong because you disagree with me, you are wrong because you are wrong. And no, I'm not a fatalist and I don't think you understand what true fatalism is and what true Calvinism is. They are not the same thing.

The fact that you can not see the errors in your theology is amazing. Many have pointed out your lame comments but you just ignore them. You are trusting your humanistic views not biblical ones.

Context and calvinism do not go together. Your whole theology is just pieced together by cherry picking verses that you hope support your view.

 

[Salty]

Six hour warning
This thread will be closed no sooner than 7 am EDT / 4 am PDT

 

[AustinC]

I was responding to Van's question in post #69. Your quote wasn't accurate.

So since Christ Jesus came only to save the Elect that must mean that only the elect were sinners, by your logic anyway.

LOL, I don't have any clue how you come to this foolish conclusion. This is a perfect example of your dishonest twisting and ultimate falsehood.

1Ti_1:15 It is a trustworthy statement, deserving full acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners,

Yep, Jesus did. Does it say all sinners, Silverhair?

Mar 2:17 I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners.

Yep, he did. Does it say all sinners, Silverhair? Try reading John 6, John 10 and John 17 where Jesus tells you who is called.

So if everyone else is not a sinner, since God did not come to call them, then that would mean they are all saved?

Now, here we have an loaded if/then question that starts with a false assumption and concludes with a false answer. This question is asked because original assertion Silverhair gives is pure garbage.

Let's look and see how far down his fantasy Silverhair will go...

They would have to be the righteous ones that were not called.

Notice the complete twist that Silverhair attempts in the above statement. It's like listening to a sports announcer comment on a basketball game and say that the goalie was on the ice wearing a mini skirt and football helmet.

But that is not what the bible says is it.
Rom 3:23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God

Indeed it does, and it is true. I believe it.

But
Christ Jesus came to be the saviour of all not just a select few.
1Ti_2:6 who gave Himself as a ransom for all

Now, if Silverhair is correct and the word all is universal to the whole world then he has just told us that he's a universalist and everyone is saved and going to be in heaven.

And
It is by faith in Christ Jesus that a person is saved/justified
Rom_5:1 Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ

Indeed it is. Ephesians 2:8-9 tells us that faith is a gift of God and it is that gracious gift of faith that justifies us before a holy God.

So
Anyone that will trust in Christ Jesus will be saved
Rom_3:28 For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law.

Yep.
Who will place their trust in God. Jesus tells us. "All whom the Father has given me."
Paul tells us it is all who have been adopted from before the foundation of the world.

So either the bible is wrong or your theology is wrong.

In this case...its neither.
The Bible is correct and I am correct.
But, you are demonstratably wrong and shown to be wrong in this post.

I am sure you can look up these verses in context if you want, but the reality is that the bible is clear, your theology is wrong

The Bible is clear. These verses prove I am correct.
This post also proves you have created a fantastically false argument from your imagination and literally nothing you asserted about me is fact. It is, in truth, your own fantasy.

Silverhair, thank you for such a convoluted falsehood. Now everyone reading this post can easily see what you did and that nothing you say can be trusted.

 

[Guido]

Romans 9 refers to the election of the body of Christ, including believing Jews and Gentiles.

 

[Guido]

There is either free will to choose or there is not.

Nowhere in the Bible does it say that people are so totally depraved that one -- that they would never accept God unless He forced them -- and two -- they are as evil as the devil.

"There is none that seeketh after God". The Bible also says: "For all have sinned, and 'fall short' of the glory of God.", not "are devoid of the glory of God."

 

[Reformed1689]

You really struggle with the text of the bible don't you. You will go to any length to deny what the bible says in the hope that it justifies your theology.

If you have to work that hard to make your theology fit then it may be time you did a rethink about?

Interesting you did not address the point...

 

[Reformed1689]

There is either free will to choose or there is not.

I am a Calvinist and I AFFIRM free will. So you are going to have to try some other argument.

 

[Salty]

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