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A.W. Tozer
- Thread starter timdabap
- Start date
Death is an enemy of God. It is a direct result of human rebellion against God.
We whom God has redeemed have no fear of death because the faith God gave us justifies us before the Holy Judge. Those who trusted in their own behavior fear death because payment is due and they cannot pay the debt.
Tozer was a legalist. His phrase is a simple expression not meant to be theological but meant to frighten people to respond to his preaching.
We whom God has redeemed have no fear of death because the faith God gave us justifies us before the Holy Judge. Those who trusted in their own behavior fear death because payment is due and they cannot pay the debt.
Tozer was a legalist. His phrase is a simple expression not meant to be theological but meant to frighten people to respond to his preaching.
timdabap
Member
what do you mean by "it is pastoral", "not theological".
I think it pertains to one's eternal destination, therefore it is theological.
timtofly
Well-Known Member
Are you saying death is illegal? Death seems pretty legal to me. It is appointed unto men, once to die, and after this the judgment. Sure does not sound like anarchy or a democracy where we get to vote on whether it happens or not.
So far dead people don't use the same address as prior to passing on. Although it seems that junk mail never stops coming. At least they don't walk out to the mail box and keep checking the mail after they are gone.
Sounds like dry humor to me. I mean if you are waiting for the judgment in your new neighborhood, would you prefer Stalin or Hitler as your next door neighbor?
I mean the comment is to communicate a practical truth to a congregation for their benefit. A sermon vs a theological dissertation.
5 point Gillinist
Active Member
I don't understand how you get legalism out of his statement. It seems pretty clear that he is saying that when we die we don't cease to exist, but where we end up (heaven or hell) depends upon what we believed i.e. faith in Christ, or rejection (no matter what form).
I have read a number of Tozer's books. He was an extreme holiness person who set up rule after rule for living. He was full blown free will so his statement is full of human effort when you understand his bigger context.
No one knows how people will relate in hell. Tozer is making a rather flippant comment, meant to get a reaction, not to teach. I think that's what Jon means by pastoral rather than theological.
Death is our enemy, not our friend.
We don't have to fear death because our Redeemer has purchased our release from the bonds of sin, but death is still our enemy.
When someone dies, we grieve deeply. The reason we grieve so deeply is because death is a result of the curse. It is an enemy to God's original creation. This is why I wear black at funerals. It symbolizes the fact that death is my enemy, not my friend. I do not celebrate death. I do celebrate my Redeemer.
5 point Gillinist
Active Member
From what limited stuff I have heard from Tozer, and read from him I've gotten the exact opposite. Even Paul Washer likes him, although I know there are plenty that call him a legalist as well.
In the off chance someone is actually interested in evaluating Mr. Tozer's quote, here is my view.
Death is just a change of address. We go from this physical existence into a spiritual one. That is the "change of address." Now those who belong to Christ immediately go to be present with the Lord in Heaven. And those who do not belong to the Lord will be taken to Hades.
Now the idea that "what you believe" determines whether or not you belong to the Lord is inaccurate. God determines whether you belong to Him or not, based on His crediting your faith as righteousness or not. So it is not the content of your faith, but God's decision concerning your faith that salvation depends. Romans 9:16. For example a well educated person could believe all the right things, yet lack commitment (having no root within themselves) and thus would not be credited.
timtofly
Well-Known Member
Tozer was not talking about the enemy death, now was he? You are changing the narrative of the whole point, just like you added legalism to the point. You are addressing everything, but the point.
Perhaps your funeral approach is not a biblical one. Of course we grieve when we lose a loved one. That is not the point. The point is they have defeated Death, the enemy. They have passed from Adam's death into eternal life. Even those in sheol should not fear Death. Tozer was correct that life keeps on going but with a different location. Those in sheol still have to face Death. They literally have not died the way you are defining death as an enemy. That Death is the last enemy to be faced and destroyed, even after Satan. So why any one thinks that Death is or has been faced over the last 6,000 years are just plain wrong. Some have had a life of torment in sheol. Some in Abraham's bosom. But after the Cross Paradise was opened, with a brand new permanent incorruptible physical body. But I guess only those with free will can understand that point of Tozer. Some are still bound up in that alledged legalism of no free will, and then complain others are "the legalist".
timtofly
Well-Known Member
Many on both sides of the issue conflate "faith" and "belief". It is just one of those words like "Jew" that people really cannot give a literal definition to. Tozer more than likely was referring to one's choice of belief. Not that "a belief" was the determining factor.
You are still equating faith with works which is a complaint of many who just see Tozer as a legalist, do themselves. Tozer is not basing their destiny on works either. He does not mention faith based works, but uses the word belief.
Without putting thoughts in Tozer's head, belief could simply be the choice one makes in accepting the free gift of Salvation or rejecting that gift. If one believes they do not need God that is their choice, without them even having to admit a God even exists. God does not credit any one for their faith as a means of their own salvation. God credits one's faith, because that is them accepting the free gift of salvation. No work involved on the part of the recipient. No legalism, no acting out that faith. The point of taking that first step is that free will act of faith. Can one believe they have taken that first step? If one cannot understand they are even lost, how can one even have faith?
One has to first think about what happens after this physical life, which is one point of the quote to begin with. Physical life for a few dozen years is not the extent of one's existence. Satan's deception on humanity has taken away any thought past one's daily physical survival. Tozer is trying to get people to think past that deception.
I agree with the first part death is a change of address... If what you believe is the neighborhood you end up in... Looks to me we are talking about the sovereignty of man
... So I guess Jesus Christ who stood in my place and did what I could not do... And appeased an offended God... By taking my sins and all his Father gave him to save, on his cross and paid for them there... Is not worth a hill of beans... I believe because I am saved, I don't believed to get saved... I'm only talking about eternal Salvation... And anyone that ends up in that neighborhood is by the Sovereign Grace Of All Mighty God because:Man needs a new heart... Not a new start
Man needs a new life... Not to turn over a new leaf
Man needs a resurrection... Not a reformation
Man without God is helpless... To help himself... That has been my mantra since I joined... Brother Glen
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timtofly
Well-Known Member
This is still trying to pin an argument against something that does not even exist. Imaginary windmills do not make a sound when they fall.I agree with the first part death is a change of address... If what you believe is the neighborhood you end up in... Look to me we are talking about the sovereign grace of man
Man needs a new heart... Not a new start
Man needs a new life... Not to turn over a new leaf
Man needs a resurrection... Not a reformation
Man without God is helpless... To help himself... That has been my mantra since I joined... Brother Glen
No one does the work of their own sovereign grace salvation. Why even point that out?
Is claiming you accept a gift an act of work or an act of faith? It is not a literal gift that you have to unwrap, ie "work at". You can still take the gift and never open it and are still saved, because you took the gift instead of tossing it back at God. It is a dead gift to you, not to God. God, did indeed, already do all the work.
Your work in the process is just "being thankful", not maintaining nor purchasing the gift provided. James says we work because of our faith, not that we work for our faith.
Tozer is also greatly influenced by the unbiblical mystics, mostly from the Roman Catholic church.
If the gift has your name on it and is given to you, personally, by the one who purchased it, then it is received as an act of grace through faith.
If the gift is an unmarked package, left at a general location that you had to search for, then figure out if you should even open it or consider it yours. If you had to determine whether to open it up by yourself...then it is your work and not really a gift as much as it is an unmarked package you claimed for yourself.
I am sorry, but the above does not reflect what I stated with clarity. Try addressing my view.
And the choice to believe is required to believe rather than reject. And as pointed out by others, if salvation can be received by our choice, then where does God crediting our faith fit into your view?
It's an epigram; a short pithy saying. Tozer's writings are full of them. It's not wrong. If it gives people pause for thought, it has done its job.
5 point Gillinist
Active Member
How exactly is he influenced by that, and what exactly does that mean? I'm genuinely curious as I have never heard of this before.