Featured THE MARK OF GOD AND BEAST

I meant 'a short period of time'. The Romans didn't return for 8 months. Even a sloth coulda left the city at leisure in that time, with no urgency required. But Jesus specified urgency in His prophecy. It didn't happen then.

Total conjecture. He allows them to observe many fests that were part of the Old Covenant. (The only ones He declared were permanent for Israel are sabbaths & passover.) While He won't recognize the sacrifices, of course, they'll occur. Remember, the beast is to stop them, recognizing only himself as God.

Orthodox Jews are still in that system.

My proof is very obvious-THE PROPHESIED EVENTS HAVEN'T YET HAPPENED. You don't have a quark of evidence that they did. And again, Rev. 19:11-21 PROVES the beast hasn't yet come to power. You simply cannot prove differently.

 

John was not writing about an event in the 5th century BC. Nor an event in the first century. Revelation cannot fit just Rome, because John writes about all the kingdoms/empires on earth.

No it does not. Rome was one nation, one empire. Revelation covers multiple nations, multiple empires. Jerusalem was never said to be destroyed in the Olivet Discourse by armies. In fact the point of fleeing occurred 3 years before the 70AD attack. The armies came and then left. You then wrongly associate that warning with a different event.

Jerusalem was not destroyed by an army in neither the OD nor the book of Revelation. Quote a verse from the NT where Jerusalem was destroyed by an army. An earthquake is not symbolic of an army. An earthquake did not do what the Romans did in 70AD.

No the OT animal sacrifices were not still in place per any God anointed priest. If there had been no rebellion, those sacrifices could have gone on for centuries without any meaning at all. AD 70 was the promise Gabriel gave Daniel that Jesus' own people would destroy their own way of life.

Sorry but this sounds like God used the Romans to act as Jesus the Prince in His place. You start out with one thought, and complete the thought with error.

No, the generation of Jesus day was the cursed fig tree that would never produce fruit.

The other generation would be when all the trees became nations and Israel itself would no longer be cursed, but bloom again. How can the destruction of Jerusalem be a blooming and fruit producing tree? The cursed fig tree was the closest one can come to what happened in 70AD. But the point was never physical Israel. It was spiritual Israel, and not the church. At the Cross Israel ceased being the spiritual leader on earth. Yet you falsely claim God still worked through the temple for 40 more years. No, God worked through the NT church both Jew and Gentile. The Temple was literally caput at the Cross.

The OD had only one reference to armies and not even the armies of Titus in 70AD. The OD has one reference to Antiochus Epiphanies and the reason the Jews celebrated Hanukkah. Revelation was not about the first century one iota.

Yet Preterist have to dismiss the entire Second Coming event that is the final harvest of all mankind, that is all of Adam's flesh and blood. Not just a few Jews left after a diaspora that wiped out most of them 700 years prior. The blooming of the fig tree, is Jesus referring back to the total restoration of Israel, all the tribes. How can you symbolize a total restoration, with a total destruction in 70AD? It is like 2 totally opposite phenomenon. Total restoration is not symbolic of total annihilation.

The one generation of the cursed fig tree would or may see destruction. Obviously 70AD did happen. The generation that sees all the tribes returning to Israel would see the actual Second Coming of Jesus as Prince. Futurist were killed in 70AD. No preterist were killed in 70AD. Preterist seem to mock Futurist yet the church has been strong for the last 1992 years. All of the church are still looking for that blessed hope and glorious appearing of the GWT, and the Day of the Lamb reigning over a restored nation of Israel. The wicked not so much.

 

I've provided plenty of evidence to support the Preterist view. You have never provided a sound argument against the "time indicators" arguments. You have no real proof, only your guesswork and futurist fantasies.

 

The marka the beast hasn't been given yet because the beast hasn't come to power yet. Here's indisputable **PROOF** from SCRIPTURE:

Rev. 19:11 Now I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse. And He who sat on him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and makes war. 12 His eyes were like a flame of fire, and on His head were many crowns. He had a name written that no one knew except Himself. 13 He was clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God.
There's no doubt this is Jesus.

14 And the armies in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, followed Him on white horses. 15 Now out of His mouth goes a sharp sword, that with it He should strike the nations. And He Himself will rule them with a rod of iron. He Himself treads the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. 16 And He has on His robe and on His thigh a name written:KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS.
The sword is symbolic of His spoken word Ruling with a rod of iron is a term used today for a very strict rule.


17 Then I saw an angel standing in the sun;
Before anyone hollers, "That's impossible" or "that's symboluic", remember, that's a metaphorical expression still used today. In WW1, Allied flyers were told to "beware the Hun in the sun", referring to German planes flying east in the afternoon, with the sun behind them. Many Germans did that deliberately.

and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the birds that fly in the midst of heaven, “Come and gather together for the supper of the great God, 18 that you may eat the flesh of kings, the flesh of captains, the flesh of mighty men, the flesh of horses and of those who sit on them, and the flesh of all people, free and slave, both small and great.”

Many different kinds of birds will eat from a carcass if there's nothing to drive them off. I've seen crows, starlings, even robins & sparrows eating from roadkill, especially if the carcass was knocked into a wide median strip So, don't say this is symbolic.

19 And I saw the beast, the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against Him who sat on the horse and against His army. 20 Then the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who worked signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image. These two were cast alive into the lake of fire burning with brimstone. 21 And the rest were killed with the sword which proceeded from the mouth of Him who sat on the horse. And all the birds were filled with their flesh.
Verse 19 is the end of the "Nero=beast" hooey. Plainly, from that verse, the beast/antichrist will be in power when Jesus returns, & he & his army will be disposed of. Jesus will kill the army with His spoken word. Perhaps their bodies will be burst asunder, making a much-more-tempting feast for the birds.

 

Plentya proof against your 'time indicators-THE PROPHESIED EVENTS SIMPLY HAVEN'T YET OCCURRED! That's about as positive a proof as there cn be!
What you call 'evidence' is nothing but imagination & guesswork, which actual history proves wrong, as I & others have posted before.

 

Revelation has more references to the OT than any other book in the NT. It makes perfect sense for John to refer to a historical event. The only way Revelation doesn't fit Rome and Jerusalem is if you have already made up your mind ahead of time that it has to apply to the whole world.

In Luke 21:20, Jesus told His disciples "When you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then recognize that her desolation is near". How much clearer could it get. History tells us these events were fulfilled between AD 66-70, which was the Great Tribulation.

God used ungodly nations to punish Israel in the OT, so why wouldn't He use Rome to punish Israel in His judgment?

We will have to agree to disagree, Brother. I have presented my case why this had to be the 1st Century generation that Jesus was speaking to. Again, the "fig tree" (and all the other trees) is just an illustration from nature - not a prophecy per se.

To begin with, Partial Preterists (such as myself) see Christ's Second Coming to be in our future. Likewise, I see the GWT as a future event. I don't get how you can say that Preterists seem to mock Futurists yet the church has been going strong since the time of Christ. Of course it has. As a Preterist, I mock the arguments that Futurists use to justify their view, but I would never make light of the role of the Church. Having said that, I do apologize to the Futurists whom I have offended. After all, we should be able to discuss our different views as Christian adults. You seem to be stuck on the "fig tree generation" idea. I don't believe there is such a thing as a "fig tree generation", unless it's the 1st century Christians who saw the events Jesus prophesied come to pass.

Where do you get the idea that I refer to total annihilation? I only spoke of the destruction of Jerusalem and the end of the Old Covenant system. The beginning of the end of the Old Covenant came at the Cross, but the final end of the Old Covenant system came with the destruction of the Temple in AD 70.

 

That's your argument??? Really??? Then either Jesus and the NT authors can't tell time, or are terrible at getting a simple message across to their audience. If Jesus meant "that generation" or "the generation that sees those events", He is smart enough to have said what He meant. Why would He leave His disciples confused? Why would the NT writers have left everyone believing those events were "near" if they really didn't mean they were near? Your evidence is nothing more than your opinion.

 

I answered this argument in post # 6 - THE MARK OF GOD AND BEAST.

 

Oh, REALLY?????????
Then, please show us from history when the events happened. Please tell us when a big meteor hit the Mediterranean Sea & destroyed a third of the ships in it. Please explain when the beast came & went, but Jesus didn't return.

 

No, you didn't. You used the usual pret dodge of Scriptures that prove preterism wrong by relegating those Scriptures to "symbolic" status, which is wrong, proven wrong by the LITERAL fulfillment of the prohhecies that HAVE cometa pass. There's NO valid reason to believe the others won't be fulfilled JUST-AS-LITERALLY.

At times you remind me of a flat-earther watching a ship sail over the horizon, saying, "It's just an optical illusion".

 

On the one hand you insist that the fantastic imagery in Revelation such as we see in the Seals, Trumpets, and Vials are literal. On the other hand, you insist that the plain, ordinary language used in the "time indicators" have to mean something else. You know my answer - the star, which you say will be a meteor, is symbolic language. No giant meteor, nor giant mountain, has ever nor will ever literally hit the Mediterranean.

The events were written in symbolic language, but the symbolism pointed to literal events. Those events literally came to pass in the Jewish Wars of AD 66-70. You keep using your Futurist dodge that the symbolism must be literal in your attempt to disprove Preterism, but you haven't proven anything.

Is repeating your argument supposed to change my mind? Is it supposed to change the mind of others who read this thread? If I were not an active participant in this discussion, I would see that nobody is saying anything new, so I would stop reading it. I know that I will not change your mind, and you should know that you will not change mine. Since we have nothing new to add, we could let it go. Each of us has said all there is to say on the matter.

 

Your "symbolism" excuse is simply wrong & unacceptable. Jesus prophesied the destruction of J & the temple. That was LITERALLY fulfilled. He prophesied war & rumor of war, which has LITERALLY occurred. He prophesied a great departure from faith, which has LITERALLY occurred. He prophesied that Jerusalem would be trod underfoot by gentiles til the time of the gentiles was over. That's still LITERALLY going on. he prophesied that something like a great burning mountain would plunge into the Mediterranean, & there's simply NO VALID REASON to believe this, & the other events of the Rev. won't all occur JUST-AS-LITERALLY.

As for your "time indicators":
Zech. 9:9
Rejoice greatly, daughter of Zion!
Shout, daughter of Jerusalem!
Look! Your king is coming to you:
He is legitimate and victorious,
humble and riding on a donkey—
on a young donkey, the foal of a female donkey.

Now, did Zech & Co. see that event? No, it came several hundred years later. But it CAME.
Same for the Rev. events. They simply HAVEN'T YET COME, as history PROVES, but they WILL come!
""Preterism-Phony as a Ford Corvette !""

 

True, Jesus did not use symbolic language when He prophesied the destruction of Jerusalem & the temple, wars and rumors of wars, etc. However, Jesus did often use symbolism - e.g., "I am the door", "the one who eats My flesh and drinks My blood will have eternal life", etc.

Many OT prophesies contain symbolic language, especially about stars going dark, God riding a cloud, etc. This is also found in Revelation, which has more references to the OT than any other NT book. This is valid reason to know that the "burning mountain" is just as symbolic as a woman sitting on the moon and wearing 12 stars. Even the terms "Beast from the sea" and "Beast from the earth" are symbolic of actual entities.

Did Zechariah indicate that either he or his immediate audience would see those events come to pass? Context is key. Jesus told His disciples "you" will see the events He foretold. The time indicators throughout the NT clearly show the events were coming within a short time. The argument that "a day is as a thousand years with the Lord" doesn't really fit your argument either. That would just lead to a lot of confusion if they couldn't depend on prophesies using common language. Speaking of common language, the symbolism of the OT and in Revelation were their common language. It's foreign to us, as we are 2,000 years from then and living in a western culture.

 

It's very obvious, from further reading of the rev, that the beast from the sea represents the antichrist & his kingdom, while the beast from the earth represents the false prophet. But there's NO symbolism for "something like a great burning mountain". Just imagine being John, seeing this & not knowing what a meteor is.

You keep hollering "time indicators. Let's shoot that one down right now.

Matt. 24:29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and THEY will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

 

I'm pretty sure John had seen shooting stars before. Revelation has a series of visions, including this burning mountain. Just as the symbolic language of the OT prophecies pointed to major events, so did all the symbolic language of Revelation.

The tribulation of those days was AD 66-70. The language here is very similar to Isaiah 13:10, Isaiah 24:23, Ezekiel 32:7, and several others. This is apocalyptic language of coming judgment. The Sign of the Son of Man was the destruction of the Temple, etc. The tribes of the earth is an obvious reference to the tribes of Israel who will see God's judgment coming on them.

Knowing that we are not going to agree, why do you persist in using the same arguments over and over? Why not just be content to agree to disagree?

 

Reply to @robycop3:
You said "Nupe! And John had never likely not seen a meteor land, nor did he know what they were, or he's at least written, "I saw a star fall into the sea."
Again, this was symbolic language.

You said "The trib will come upon the whole world, as Jesus said. And the tribes of the earth are ALL of them, as the whole world will see Jesus' return."
You like to pick and choose what is literal. "Burning mountain" and "Tribulation will come upon the whole world" have got to be literal; "These things will happen soon" - that's gotta mean in the distant future. If you would take your "Futurist" blinders off, you would be able to see what Scripture actually teaches us.

Finally, you say that you are not content to just agree to disagree because you believe you are right and that I can't prove you wrong. The very nature of any disagreement is that each side is fully convinced that he is right and the other side cannot prove otherwise. We've been debating our eschatological views for so long that we can pretty well predict what each of us will say in response to any question or comment. But that's okay. We can keep this up until the cows come home, go back out to pasture, and come home again. At least the guys in my weekly Bible Study are content to discuss topics other than our "End Times" views. We often come across passages where we have different interpretations. We express our views, talk about them for a bit, then move on. You are pretty much the only guy who won't just let it go.

 

That's because I KNOW I'm right, not just guessing. I know history pretty well, & have lots of history sources available. And I KNOW the prophesied eschatological events haven't happened yet. You may holler about "time indicators" all you wish, but that's no substitute for the non-occurrence of those events.

The "symbolic" excuse is horse feathers. prets use it for "inconvenient" Scriptures about events that haven't yet happened & therefore render preterism false.

Jesus said:
There shall be false christs. That's cometa pass, & is still occurring.
There shall be wars & rumors of wars. That, of course, has cometa pass & is still occurring. And of these, Jesus said the end is not yet.
There shall be famines, earthquakes, & pestilences in various places. This has been , & is still occurring right now. Jesus said these are the beginning of sorrows.
He prophesied persecution of Christians in every nation.
He prophesied many people would be offended, betray one another & hate one another.
He prophesied many false prophets would come & deceive many people.(Gentry, Preston, etc?)
He prophesied lawlessness would abound & the love of many shall grow cold.
He prophesied the Gospel would be preached to all people everywhere. That's still going on.

And that's just SOME of His prophecies that have LITERALLY cometa pass. So, there's absolutely NO VALID REASON to believe the rest of His prophecies won't cometa pass JUST-AS-LITERALLY!

Neither you, nor ANY preterist can prove differently. Your doctrine is simply false, & you can't escape that fact.

You said you'd drop preterism if it was proven wrong to you. The non-occurrence of the prophesied eschatological events should be as convincing a proof as anyone needs to see preterism is false. But prets keep making up silly excuses because they don't want to drop their precious false doctrine. They remind me of flat-earthers going on a spaceship ride. They can see out the window before blastoff to know there's no distortion of their view, but when the ship is 200 miles above the earth & it appears to be a big ball, they say it's an optical illusion, caused either by their window's cooling down, or the atmosphere. To them, their doctrine is more precious than reality. Same for prets. They see the truth, but their doctrine is more-precious to them, so they make excuses not to believe the truth. I believe all the other readers here see that!

 

You imply that I am just guessing, and that I don't know for sure. Let me assure you, I KNOW those events have happened just as surely as I know that Jesus died on the Cross and rose from the dead on the 3rd day. You may repeat "those events just haven't happened yet" all day, but that doesn't mean they have not occurred. It just means you fail to recognize that they have.

Neither you, nor any "futurist" can prove those events have not happened yet. It's the "futurist" view that is pure fantasy. That, Brother, is a fact that you can't get past.

I stand by that. If you could ever find proof that Preterism is wrong, I'd drop it. After all, that's what I did when I realized the "Futurist" view is wrong. I realized the errors of the Futurist view around 2007. I studied the matter in depth, and I prayed for guidance and wisdom. God used Gentry & DeMar to introduce me to this view, but the Holy Spirit settled the issue for me. In all the discussions I've had over this topic since then, nobody has provided proof that Partial Preterism is wrong. That is as impossible as trying to prove that Christ did not ascend into Heaven, or that God did not part the Red Sea.

 

No, you DON'T know. You cannot show them to us in history. And all the history boox I have aren't wrong. Those events are so big that history couldn'ta missed them.

It's been proven for centuries. The occurrence of those events is NOT found in history. No worldwide great trib, no marka the beast, no AOD, no meteor plunging into the Mediterranean, etc.

The proof has been presented umpteen times. Remember, the prophecies must be fulfilled TO THE LETTER, EXACTLY as originally written. Just being close doesn't count. You CANNOT show us the occurrence of those events in history. The destruction of J & the temple are well-recorded, as are the short list of events I posted yesterday. But the rest are nowhere to be found. You may search the entire internet for legitimate history sites, or any legitimate history book in any library, but it'll be in vain.

And no matter whatcha think, you haven't gotten past the Rev. 19 problem for preterism, which completely erases the goofy notion that Nero was the beast. Symbolism notwithstanding, it's plain that the beast will be in power when Jesus returns, & He will dispose of the beast & his army. The Roman army that destroyed J & the temple, nor their leader Titus, were NOT destroyed, but returned to Rome in triumph. That's well-recorded!

And Gentry, DeMar, etc. are merely quack booksellers, in the manner of Gail Riplinger, Melton, Fuller, etc. They take advantage of people's gullibility, which would be cured by careful Bible & history study.

NOW, TRY TO PROVE ME WRONG!

""PRETERISM-PHONY AS A FORD CORVETTE!""