THE MARK OF GOD AND BEAST

[Lodic]

No, you DON'T know. You cannot show them to us in history. And all the history boox I have aren't wrong. Those events are so big that history couldn'ta missed them.

It's been proven for centuries. The occurrence of those events is NOT found in history. No worldwide great trib, no marka the beast, no AOD, no meteor plunging into the Mediterranean, etc.

The proof has been presented umpteen times. Remember, the prophecies must be fulfilled TO THE LETTER, EXACTLY as originally written. Just being close doesn't count. You CANNOT show us the occurrence of those events in history. The destruction of J & the temple are well-recorded, as are the short list of events I posted yesterday. But the rest are nowhere to be found. You may search the entire internet for legitimate history sites, or any legitimate history book in any library, but it'll be in vain.

And no matter whatcha think, you haven't gotten past the Rev. 19 problem for preterism, which completely erases the goofy notion that Nero was the beast. Symbolism notwithstanding, it's plain that the beast will be in power when Jesus returns, & He will dispose of the beast & his army. The Roman army that destroyed J & the temple, nor their leader Titus, were NOT destroyed, but returned to Rome in triumph. That's well-recorded!

And Gentry, DeMar, etc. are merely quack booksellers, in the manner of Gail Riplinger, Melton, Fuller, etc. They take advantage of people's gullibility, which would be cured by careful Bible & history study.

NOW, TRY TO PROVE ME WRONG!

""PRETERISM-PHONY AS A FORD CORVETTE!""

As far as I am concerned, I've proven my case many times. As far as you are concerned, you've proven your case many times. I don't see any point in discussing this any further, since neither of us accepts the other's proof. Good day, Brother.

 

[robycop3]

As far as I am concerned, I've proven my case many times. As far as you are concerned, you've proven your case many times. I don't see any point in discussing this any further, since neither of us accepts the other's proof. Good day, Brother.

If you don't wish to discuss it further, fine. I have the satisfaction of knowing I've likely warned some newer Christians that preterism is false by PRESENTING PROOF, as they can easily see for themselves with Scripture & a history book. However, I'll be happy to discuss other things with you whenever the occasion may arise.

 

[Lodic]

If you don't wish to discuss it further, fine. I have the satisfaction of knowing I've likely warned some newer Christians that preterism is false by PRESENTING PROOF, as they can easily see for themselves with Scripture & a history book. However, I'll be happy to discuss other things with you whenever the occasion may arise.

Since you never have any new or convincing arguments, I'd just as soon not continue. I have the satisfaction of letting other Christians know that Preterism is a viable alternative to the "Left Behind" scenarios that are so prevalent. Whether they accept the proof that I've offered, they should at least have a chance to take an objective look at it. I'm sure we will pick up our debate on another thread in the future. Take care.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Since you never have any new or convincing arguments, I'd just as soon not continue. I have the satisfaction of letting other Christians know that Preterism is a viable alternative to the "Left Behind" scenarios that are so prevalent. Whether they accept the proof that I've offered, they should at least have a chance to take an objective look at it. I'm sure we will pick up our debate on another thread in the future. Take care.

We see the Olivet Discourse as it unfolds. They point to the beauty of the temple buildings and Jesus tells them they will be completely torn down, so that not even a stone would be upon another. They asked Him, ”Tell us, when will these things happen, and what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?”[Matthew 24:3] He then begins telling them of all that will transpire, all they will witness and even suffer through, some even dying. Even after the much bandied passage of Matthew 24:29-31, which many say is an end times event, Jesus said, ”Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place.”[Matthew 24:34]

Say God shows me where you live and and tells me 3,362 years later that very place where you live at on March 28, 2022, is going to be nuked by a nuclear bomb. What good would it do me to warn you of this event?

 

[robycop3]

We see the Olivet Discourse as it unfolds. They point to the beauty of the temple buildings and Jesus tells them they will be completely torn down, so that not even a stone would be upon another. They asked Him, ”Tell us, when will these things happen, and what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?”[Matthew 24:3] He then begins telling them of all that will transpire, all they will witness and even suffer through, some even dying. Even after the much bandied passage of Matthew 24:29-31, which many say is an end times event, Jesus said, ”Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place.”[Matthew 24:34]

Say God shows me where you live and and tells me 3,362 years later that very place where you live at on March 28, 2022, is going to be nuked by a nuclear bomb. What good would it do me to warn you of this event?

Yes, the generation that sees the eschatological events begin will see them all. They haven't happened yet.

Are you gonna do as some other posters & claim the "time indicators" show those events have already happened, while stumped because they can't find them in history?

 

[SovereignGrace]

Still straightjacketed I see.

 

[SovereignGrace]

This generation
Soon
Near
Quickly


Surely these all mean 2-3-4 millennia later. Only in dispensationalism…

 

[robycop3]

This generation
Soon
Near
Quickly


Surely these all mean 2-3-4 millennia later. Only in dispensationalism…

OK, then, please show us in history where those events occurred. Who were the beast & the false prophet? What did the marka the beast look like? When was the worldwide trib? When did a large meteor plunge into the Mediterranean, destroying a third of the ships in it?

 

[SovereignGrace]

OK, then, please show us in history where those events occurred.

We went over this on another forum. Read the Olivet Discourse and then read Revelation. Revelation was written pre-70 AD and pointed to the fall of Jerusalem and the destruction of the temple. Granted, His second coming hasn’t happened yet, but the vast majority of Revelation was fulfilled in 70 AD.

 

[kyredneck]

While we do indeed see a "global beast of a system in place" today, I do not believe it's the same as the Beast of Revelation. You are right that we should be very concerned about how the world governments are forcing people into compliance. The U.S. looks a lot more like Nazi Germany today than 20 years ago.

FACT:

9 That which hath been is that which shall be; and that which hath been done is that which shall be done: and there is no new thing under the sun. Ecc 1

...names, faces, places change but the same situations keep occurring over and over again....there is no new thing under the sun.

 

[robycop3]

We went over this on another forum. Read the Olivet Discourse and then read Revelation. Revelation was written pre-70 AD and pointed to the fall of Jerusalem and the destruction of the temple. Granted, His second coming hasn’t happened yet, but the vast majority of Revelation was fulfilled in 70 AD.

Nupe! Rev was written during Domitian's reign(81-96 AD) And the other events simply haven't happened yet.

And the beast hasn't yet come, or else Jesus would now be here, or the beast would still be in power. Please carefully read Rev. 19:11-21.

 

[robycop3]

FACT:

9 That which hath been is that which shall be; and that which hath been done is that which shall be done: and there is no new thing under the sun. Ecc 1

...names, faces, places change but the same situations keep occurring over and over again....there is no new thing under the sun.

That all changed about 900 years after Solly when Jesus came.

 

[timtofly]

We will have to agree to disagree, Brother. I have presented my case why this had to be the 1st Century generation that Jesus was speaking to. Again, the "fig tree" (and all the other trees) is just an illustration from nature - not a prophecy per se.

Because the fig tree blooming is in contrast to Jesus cursing the fig tree. Jesus purposely cursed the fig tree out of season. If Jesus cursed the fig tree for just being a fig tree, then it was not to teach or prophecy. It was God being mean and out of character.

If you are satisfied that Jesus was just teaching a lesson and being mean and out of character, then why include either stories? The Bible is not alledged to just being a science textbook. Normally Jesus had a definite purpose with every thing He did.

If you approach the Bible as just being a historical record or teaching us science, would that also be approaching it with a pre-bias view? I did not read the Bible with any pre-conceived notions. So sorry, that point will not work on me. Have I been swayed by other people's opinions? Sure. But not going to buy that opinion that the fig tree was just a science lesson. Jesus included it as a metric about His Second Comming and the end.

 

[timtofly]

Reply to @robycop3:
You said "Nupe! And John had never likely not seen a meteor land, nor did he know what they were, or he's at least written, "I saw a star fall into the sea."
Again, this was symbolic language.

You said "The trib will come upon the whole world, as Jesus said. And the tribes of the earth are ALL of them, as the whole world will see Jesus' return."
You like to pick and choose what is literal. "Burning mountain" and "Tribulation will come upon the whole world" have got to be literal; "These things will happen soon" - that's gotta mean in the distant future. If you would take your "Futurist" blinders off, you would be able to see what Scripture actually teaches us.

Finally, you say that you are not content to just agree to disagree because you believe you are right and that I can't prove you wrong. The very nature of any disagreement is that each side is fully convinced that he is right and the other side cannot prove otherwise. We've been debating our eschatological views for so long that we can pretty well predict what each of us will say in response to any question or comment. But that's okay. We can keep this up until the cows come home, go back out to pasture, and come home again. At least the guys in my weekly Bible Study are content to discuss topics other than our "End Times" views. We often come across passages where we have different interpretations. We express our views, talk about them for a bit, then move on. You are pretty much the only guy who won't just let it go.

40 years in biblical terms is not soon either. Life expectancy was only 35 years. 70AD was about the third if not fourth generation since the OD. Not one single person in the crowd that day was still alive in 70AD. In fact God made the OT Hebrews to wander in the wilderness for 40 years to make sure all were dead dead. Were those 40 years only symbolic and perhaps they crossed the Jordan that same year?

You do realize that God could have let the Romans destroy Jerusalem a year after the Cross? Have you ever wondered why it happened 40 years later? Was it a repeat of the OT, and God was making sure every one was dead? That way no one could say that generation meant the end was that generation.

 

[Lodic]

Because the fig tree blooming is in contrast to Jesus cursing the fig tree. Jesus purposely cursed the fig tree out of season. If Jesus cursed the fig tree for just being a fig tree, then it was not to teach or prophecy. It was God being mean and out of character.

If you are satisfied that Jesus was just teaching a lesson and being mean and out of character, then why include either stories? The Bible is not alledged to just being a science textbook. Normally Jesus had a definite purpose with every thing He did.

If you approach the Bible as just being a historical record or teaching us science, would that also be approaching it with a pre-bias view? I did not read the Bible with any pre-conceived notions. So sorry, that point will not work on me. Have I been swayed by other people's opinions? Sure. But not going to buy that opinion that the fig tree was just a science lesson. Jesus included it as a metric about His Second Coming and the end.

Yes, I am convinced that Jesus was using the fig tree, and all the other trees, to make a point. He wasn't teaching science or botany, but was simply giving His disciples an object lesson. The point was that just as they knew Spring is near when the trees bloom, so they would also know by the signs that He gave them that the end of the (Old Covenant) age was near. Those signs came when Jerusalem was surrounded by armies, just as He said they would.

 

[Lodic]

40 years in biblical terms is not soon either. Life expectancy was only 35 years. 70AD was about the third if not fourth generation since the OD. Not one single person in the crowd that day was still alive in 70AD. In fact God made the OT Hebrews to wander in the wilderness for 40 years to make sure all were dead dead. Were those 40 years only symbolic and perhaps they crossed the Jordan that same year?

You do realize that God could have let the Romans destroy Jerusalem a year after the Cross? Have you ever wondered why it happened 40 years later? Was it a repeat of the OT, and God was making sure every one was dead? That way no one could say that generation meant the end was that generation.

How would you know that nobody from His immediate audience that day would still be alive 40 years from then? I suggest that is speculation, Brother. The average life expectancy may have been shorter, but that doesn't change the definition of "generation". As a side note, even those who believe the events of the Olivet Discourse, Revelation, etc. are in our future believe that John wrote Revelation in the 90s. That would have made him a very old man, especially for that day and time.

Why did God wait 40 years to destroy Jerusalem? You made a good observation with the 40 years of Israel wandering in the wilderness. (I'm sure you were just being facetious with your question about the Israelite's 40 years of wandering, since this is recorded history.) Could be a connection, as it would be a pretty big coincidence. Even Jesus didn't know when it would happen, but He did know that it was coming. Regardless, Jesus told His immediate audience "they" would see the events He spoke of. Sure, we know that some definitely died. However, I have to take Jesus at His word.

 

[robycop3]

Yes, I am convinced that Jesus was using the fig tree, and all the other trees, to make a point. He wasn't teaching science or botany, but was simply giving His disciples an object lesson. The point was that just as they knew Spring is near when the trees bloom, so they would also know by the signs that He gave them that the end of the (Old Covenant) age was near. Those signs came when Jerusalem was surrounded by armies, just as He said they would.

Well, ACTUALLY, the signs will mean that His return is near.

 

[Lodic]

Well, ACTUALLY, the signs will mean that His return is near.

I must respectfully disagree, sir. The signs Jesus gave them were seen when Jerusalem was surrounded by armies. The disciples knew Jerusalem's desolation was near, just as surely as they knew that Summer is near when the fig tree puts forth its leaves.

 

[robycop3]

I must respectfully disagree, sir. The signs Jesus gave them were seen when Jerusalem was surrounded by armies. The disciples knew Jerusalem's desolation was near, just as surely as they knew that Summer is near when the fig tree puts forth its leaves.

No, the signs will be for the imminent return of Jesus. The disciples knew J's destruction was near when the Zealots & their buddies began an armed rebellion against Rome. They knew the Romans would react violently.

 

[Lodic]

No, the signs will be for the imminent return of Jesus. The disciples knew J's destruction was near when the Zealots & their buddies began an armed rebellion against Rome. They knew the Romans would react violently.

I disagree, of course. What specific signs do you see that make you believe Christ's return is near?