John 6:37

[Guido]

“All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. - John 6:37

Here we see that two truths are stated: one, those whom the Father gives to Jesus and those who will come to Jesus are in the same group, (Nothing beyond that is stated, or can be inferred, from this statement.) and two, those who come to Jesus and those who Jesus will never cast out are in the same group.

What does this have to do with Calvinism? How do this prove Calvinism. I see no way this passage can be taken to say what Calvinists twist is to say. He did not say, "All whom the Father giveth to me shall come to me, because he gave them to me." He did not say that. So what is there point?

I must admit that I did not read this in a commentary. But this is what I see as the plain meaning of this passage.

 

[Iconoclast]

“All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. - John 6:37

Here we see that two truths are stated: one, those whom the Father gives to Jesus and those who will come to Jesus are in the same group, (Nothing beyond that is stated, or can be inferred, from this statement.) and two, those who come to Jesus and those who Jesus will never cast out are in the same group.

What does this have to do with Calvinism? How do this prove Calvinism. I see no way this passage can be taken to say what Calvinists twist is to say. He did not say, "All whom the Father giveth to me shall come to me, because he gave them to me." He did not say that. So what is there point?

I must admit that I did not read this in a commentary. But this is what I see as the plain meaning of this passage.

Try reading the whole thought, jn6:37-44..
Also All the Father gives shall come, and Him that comes, are not two different groups, but they are one and the same.

39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

 

[Guido]

Try reading the whole thought, jn6:37-44..
Also All the Father gives shall come, and Him that comes, are not two different groups, but they are one and the same.

39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

And who are those that God gave him? Those who will come to him.

Romans 8:29-30, Ephesians 1:4 KJV

Keywords: "foreknow", and "in him"

Question: Is "in him" an object compliment or is it an adverbial phrase? (I think that's the right term.)

 

[Guido]

I'm not supporting Arminianism. I'm just non-Calvinistic, believing in eternal security.

 

[Iconoclast]

And who are those that God gave him? Those who will come to him.

Romans 8:29-30, Ephesians 1:4 KJV

Keywords: "foreknow", and "in him"

Question: Is "in him" an object compliment or is it an adverbial phrase? (I think that's the right term.)]

I'm not supporting arminianism. I'm just non-Calvinistic, believing in eternal security.

In romans8...it says WHOM HE DID FOREKNOW...NOT WHAT HE DID FOREKNOW

 

[Guido]

In romans8...it says WHOM HE DID FOREKNOW...NOT WHAT HE DID FOREKNOW

And that proves what?

 

[Iconoclast]

And that proves what?

God foreknew the people, those elected and given to the Son.

Biblical foreknowledge is of the people themselves *:29-30..

Not God looking into the future.
Not God knowing ahead of time is they would do something, believe, not believe, repent,etc

 

[AustinC]

God foreknew the people, those elected and given to the Son.

Biblical foreknowledge is of the people themselves *:29-30..

Not God looking into the future.
Not God knowing ahead of time is they would do something, believe, not believe, repent,etc

Iconoclast, this is a Proverbs 26 situation. My advice is to walk away from this and let the OP expose himself.

 

[Reformed1689]

And who are those that God gave him? Those who will come to him.

Romans 8:29-30, Ephesians 1:4 KJV

Keywords: "foreknow", and "in him"

Yep study the Greek.

 

[JD731]

Try reading the whole thought, jn6:37-44..
Also All the Father gives shall come, and Him that comes, are not two different groups, but they are one and the same.

39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

In the context of the ministry of Jesus Christ to Israel, he is the shepherd and Israel is the sheep. They are scattered on a thousand hills. He presents himself as the shepherd and all the sheep who comes to him will be accepted by him and he will cast none of them away. The Father, whose the sheep are, draws the sheep to him. At the end of the day, all those who come to him he gives eternal life. Whether they come to him or not they are still sheep and they all belong to the Father. They are called the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

Interestingly, only the family of Abraham are sheep. Paul, writing to gentiles never calls us sheep. The church are not sheep. Paul uses the word sheep in his 13 letters only once, in Romans 8, which is in the context of Israel. All this is significant and should be taken into account when one is formulating his doctrinal views of scripture.

2Ch 18:16 Then he said, I did see all Israel scattered upon the mountains, as sheep that have no shepherd: and the LORD said, These have no master; let them return [therefore] every man to his house in peace.

Jer 50:17 Israel [is] a scattered sheep; the lions have driven [him] away: first the king of Assyria hath devoured him; and last this Nebuchadrezzar king of Babylon hath broken his bones.

Mic 2:12 I will surely assemble, O Jacob, all of thee; I will surely gather the remnant of Israel; I will put them together as the sheep of Bozrah, as the flock in the midst of their fold: they shall make great noise by reason of [the multitude of] men.

Mt 15:24 But he answered (a gentile woman) and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

Jer 31:10 Hear the word of the LORD, O ye nations, and declare [it] in the isles afar off, and say, He that scattered Israel will gather him, and keep him, as a shepherd [doth] his flock.

Eze 34:5 And they were scattered, because [there is] no shepherd: and they became meat to all the beasts of the field, when they were scattered.

Jer 50:6 My people hath been lost sheep: their shepherds have caused them to go astray, they have turned them away [on] the mountains: they have gone from mountain to hill, they have forgotten their restingplace.

The lost sheep of Israel is the one to whom Jesus came in his earthly ministry.

I am not guessing about this, it is what is taught by the words of scripture.

 

[Iconoclast]

14 I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.

15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.

16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.


29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?

32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?

33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?

36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.

37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.

38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,

39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

All of the foreknown elect are sheep

 

[Guido]

God foreknew the people, those elected and given to the Son.

Biblical foreknowledge is of the people themselves *:29-30..

Not God looking into the future.
Not God knowing ahead of time is they would do something, believe, not believe, repent,etc

Yep study the Greek.

I don't know Greek. I can only compare the Greek words with the English translation. I'll admit right now I'm not a scholar.

The word in the Greek translated into foreknow means to know beforehand.

In him, is either a modifier of the pronoun "us", or a modifier or object compliment of the verb chosen. Which one is it? I must admit I don't know. But it is clear that if prepositional phrase modifies "us" then those in the body of Christ are the one 's God chose before the foundation of the word to be holy and blameless before him in love.

This is not my own interpretation, but I agree with it, because it makes sense. If you can demonstrate from the Greek that "in him" does not modify "us", then Calvinism may not be discredited by this verse so easily. But if you cannot demonstrate that, then this verse does not support Calvinism.

 

[Iconoclast]

Iconoclast, this is a Proverbs 26 situation. My advice is to walk away from this and let the OP expose himself.

Yes... this was before I read his blasphemous post.

 

[atpollard]

What does this have to do with Calvinism? How do this prove Calvinism. I see no way this passage can be taken to say what Calvinists twist is to say. He did not say, "All whom the Father giveth to me shall come to me, because he gave them to me." He did not say that. So what is there point?

I love ‘logic’ as a study, so I hope you don’t mind if I give this a shot.

GIVEN:
“All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. - John 6:37

Let us assume for this exercise in logic (and reading comprehension) that PERSON A is “given” by the Father to the Son (as in one of “All that the Father giveth me”). Let us also assume that PERSON B is “not given” by the Father to the Son (as in NOT one of “All that the Father giveth me”).

The only unproven assumption is that not ALL are given by the Father to the Son. This actually can be proven from other scripture, but this verse standing alone does not disprove universal salvation. However, for this discussion, we will ASSUME that everyone without exception is not PERSON A.

So what do we KNOW (as a certainty from the quoted verse) about PERSON A:

1. The Father gave PERSON A to the Son: “All that the Father giveth me” ( from our definition of PERSON A).
2. PERSON A will come to the Son: “All that the Father giveth me shall come to me”.
   
3. PERSON A will never be cast out by the Son: “and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.” (point 2 established that PERSON A “cometh to me”).
4. PERSON A has eternal life (the surrounding verses affirm that “coming to Christ” is equivalent to “eternal life”, so this is a clarification of the definition of what it means for PERSON A to “come to me”.)

So what do we KNOW (as a certainty from the quoted verse) about PERSON B:

1. The Father did not gave PERSON B to the Son: “All that the Father giveth me” ( from our definition of PERSON B).
2. PERSON B may or may not come to the Son, but they have no guarantee that they will come to the son: “All that the Father giveth me shall come to me”. (This then begs the Pelagian question: ‘Can men come to God without the need for any action on God’s part?’ … other scripture says no, so PERSON B cannot come to the Son - John 6:44)
   
3. PERSON B has no assurance of acceptance by the Son: “and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.”
4. PERSON B has no eternal life (without coming to Christ, there is no “other” door to salvation).

What we can know from this verse about PERSON A affirms everything in the Doctrines of Grace (‘Calvinism’) about God choosing and drawing and saving and preserving those He has chosen. What we can know about PERSON B from this verse is all speculation centered on the ability of MEN to draw themselves to Christ without the Father and to cling to Christ who has made no promise to cling to them. Fortunately, we have more than this one verse (or even this one chapter) to fill in the missing information about PERSON B and the desperate need for men to be PERSON A if they are to be saved at all.

However, to your points: NOTHING in this verse refutes the Doctrines of Grace, rather they affirm the efficacy of the Father to save those whom He gives to the Son.

 

[Iconoclast]

The word in the Greek translated into foreknow means to know beforehand.

Yep, He knew the persons beforehand...
29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

4x the texts says WHOM,,,,,, BUT UNLESS YOU REPENT FROM BLAMING GOD FOR MANS SIN IT IS NOT GOING TO HELP YOU.

 

[Guido]

I never said I believed in universal salvation, something I definitely don't believe in. I believe that God foreknew those who would be in the body of Christ, and that these are those who are waiting to be adopted as his children. That is the redemption of their body. I don't know if this is consistent with everything I've read or watched, meaning I don't know if they agree with one another. But I'll look into this matter further.

I don't blame God for man's sins. I believe man is responsible for his own sins. I believe Calvinists imply God is the author of sin.

 

[JD731]

In romans8...it says WHOM HE DID FOREKNOW...NOT WHAT HE DID FOREKNOW

In Romans 8, the context demands that those whom God foreknew is the family of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob with whom he had made a covenant of works, the Mosaic covenant. This is pictured as bondage for Israel as they labored under it. He has a whole chapter, chapter 7, detailing the frustration of a Jewish man who is attempting to please God by keeping the law only to have the perfection of the law condemn him.

However the answer to the frustration is given in chapter 8 where the perfection of the law and the righteousness thereof is realized in Jesus Christ and his righteousness imputed to them in the person of his Spirit. Israel is admonished to walk not after the flesh (trying to keep the law of Moses by the power of the flesh) but after the Spirit. (who we find out later in the chapter indwells the believer in Jesus). We find out in chapter 8 that those of Israel that are freed from the law by being "in Jesus Christ" are also made sons of God by that transaction. Walking in the Spirit is submitting to the Lordship of Jesus Christ and allow him to lead and direct their paths. Now the Fatherhood of God and a new family is far better that the fatherhood of Abraham.

Now, while there are some universal truths in the chapter that can and will apply to gentiles, there are some things that cannot apply. The universal truths that apply to gentiles will be stated also in passages where the gentiles are being addressed. The primary audience that Paul has in mind from Rom 7:1 through Rom 11:12 is Israel. This is the reason foreknowledge is not found in passages that are written to gentiles, like the letter to the Ephesians and the one to Colossians although some of the other doctrinal terms are.

Therefore "foreknowledge" means known before and applies to his people Israel who he has known before when they were under the operative principle of divine dealing of the Mosaic law. He certainly did not know the gentiles before. I am not guessing about that because it is plainly stated. One can read it for himself for confirmation of this truth.

Eph 2:11 Wherefore remember, that ye [being] in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

Romans was written in 58 AD and Ephesians was written in 60 AD. In time past there was no plan revealed for gentile salvation.

Think about this.

 

[Guido]

Yep, He knew the persons beforehand...
29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

4x the texts says WHOM,,,,,, BUT UNLESS YOU REPENT FROM BLAMING GOD FOR MANS SIN IT IS NOT GOING TO HELP YOU.

The verse is clearly distinguishing between foreknowing and predestinating. It says, whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate

 

[atpollard]

I'm not supporting Arminianism. I'm just non-Calvinistic, believing in eternal security.

OK, so let’s figure out what you have a problem with.

T.U.L.I.P.

You already admitted that you have no issue with “P” (Preservation of the Saints) … God doesn’t “drop” anyone along the way.

So what about “T” (Total Inability / Total Depravity) … it is all Adam’s fault, and because of him, we are all born with a body, a mind and a spirit (or soul) that is ‘bent’ enough that it naturally points in any direction except towards God. THEREFORE, men are incapable of saving themselves without help from God (grace comes before salvation).

Do you have a problem with the “T”?

 

[Guido]

OK, so let’s figure out what you have a problem with.

T.U.L.I.P.

You already admitted that you have no issue with “P” (Preservation of the Saints) … God doesn’t “drop” anyone along the way.

So what about “T” (Total Inability / Total Depravity) … it is all Adam’s fault, and because of him, we are all born with a body, a mind and a spirit (or soul) that is ‘bent’ enough that it naturally points in any direction except towards God. THEREFORE, men are incapable of saving themselves without help from God (grace comes before salvation).

Do you have a problem with the “T”?

I have a problem with limited atonement, unconditional election, and irresistable grace. The other two points, if they don't mean what I think Calvinists mean by them, I have no problem with. But I don't think everyone is totally depraved, as though there is no good in every single person. I think they're just doing dead works, works that cannot please God becase they are not in faith. And I think they are not going to enter Heaven because they have not met God's perfect standard. They "have sinned, and fall short of the glory of God".

If, being illuminated by the Holy Spirit, they choose of their own free will to respond in faith, believing in Christ, they are sealed by the same spirit till the day of redemption, the rapture.