John 6:37

[Iconoclast]

In Romans 8, the context demands that those whom God foreknew is the family of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob with whom he had made a covenant of works, the Mosaic covenant. This is pictured as bondage for Israel as they labored under it. He has a whole chapter, chapter 7, detailing the frustration of a Jewish man who is attempting to please God by keeping the law only to have the perfection of the law condemn him.

However the answer to the frustration is given in chapter 8 where the perfection of the law and the righteousness thereof is realized in Jesus Christ and his righteousness imputed to them in the person of his Spirit. Israel is admonished to walk not after the flesh (trying to keep the law of Moses by the power of the flesh) but after the Spirit. (who we find out later in the chapter indwells the believer in Jesus). We find out in chapter 8 that those of Israel that are freed from the law by being "in Jesus Christ" are also made sons of God by that transaction. Walking in the Spirit is submitting to the Lordship of Jesus Christ and allow him to lead and direct their paths. Now the Fatherhood of God and a new family is far better that the fatherhood of Abraham.

Now, while there are some universal truths in the chapter that can and will apply to gentiles, there are some things that cannot apply. The universal truths that apply to gentiles will be stated also in passages where the gentiles are being addressed. The primary audience that Paul has in mind from Rom 7:1 through Rom 11:12 is Israel. This is the reason foreknowledge is not found in passages that are written to gentiles, like the letter to the Ephesians and the one to Colossians although some of the other doctrinal terms are.

Therefore "foreknowledge" means known before and applies to his people Israel who he has known before when they were under the operative principle of divine dealing of the Mosaic law. He certainly did not know the gentiles before. I am not guessing about that because it is plainly stated. One can read it for himself for confirmation of this truth.

Eph 2:11 Wherefore remember, that ye [being] in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

Romans was written in 58 AD and Ephesians was written in 60 AD. In time past there was no plan revealed for gentile salvation.

Think about this.

Why this is wrong is;

6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.

8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed


24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

25 As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.

26 And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.

30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.

 

[atpollard]

In Romans 8, the context demands that those whom God foreknew is the family of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob with whom he had made a covenant of works, the Mosaic covenant.

It DEMANDS no such thing.
The context does not even suggest it.
Abraham, Isaac and Jacob are hardly DESERVING of glorification for their actions recorded in scripture. They are a monument to God’s grace. All of Romans is threaded with an overarching theme of “no difference between Jews and Gentiles” and “God, not man”.

 

[Iconoclast]

The verse is clearly distinguishing between foreknowing and predestinating. It says, whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate

you will never come to truth if you avoid it

look again;
,
29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

the Whom are;
foreknown........He also
predestined.....THEM He also
called..........them He also
justified........Them He also
glorified.....

No way to avoid it.

 

[Guido]

you will never come to truth if you avoid it

look again;
,
29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

the Whom are;
foreknown........He also
predestined.....THEM He also
called..........them He also
justified........Them He also
glorified.....

No way to avoid it.

Yeah, so. He foreknew them, he predestinated them, he called them, he justified them, and glorified them. I believe that. But it starts with foreknowledge.

But look at this.

If the Father gave a person to Jesus, then he will come to him.
If he does not come to him, then the Father did not give him to Jesus.
If he comes to him, God will never cast him out.
Those who come to Christ are those who the Father gave him; those who do not come to him are those who the Father did not give him.

So, who are those that the Father gave to him them?
Did the Father give them to Jesus because they would come to him?
Or did they come to him because the Father gave them to him. It simply does not say one way or the other.

Sorry if I'm mishandling the tenses of the verse. Maybe it actually says cometh to me not shall come to me. I don't know why, when I search for the verse in the KJV, I saw the wrong translation.

Sometimes the perfect present tense signifies the future tense. So either way it doesn't matter.

 

[atpollard]

But I don't think everyone is totally depraved, as though there is no good in every single person.

The “total” isn’t depth, it’s breath. It doesn’t mean “everyone is as depraved as they can possibly be”. It means that NO PART of man was left untouched by sin at the fall.

• Our FLESH (bodies) do not naturally crave to do what is right … tell any teenager awash with hormones that abstaining from physical contact with members of the opposite gender is best for maintaining personal holiness and see how innately popular and easy to follow that advice is. Let’s try a simpler one, food is necessary to survive, but our body so craves “excess pleasure” that the world has an obesity problem. Clearly our bodies are not perfect.
• Our MIND thinks evil thoughts. Paul dedicated a chapter to the war between wanting to please God and the constant draw of sin. Jesus said “hate” was equal to “murder” … that is our fallen mind naturally drawing us away from God and towards sin. Of course we can fight to resist it. The point is that something is broken when we need to fight to resist our own thoughts.
• Our SPIRIT does not naturally yield to God. Read the bottom of Romans 1 and see how men are “idol factories”. Satan whispers “you can be like God” and something inside of us WANTS to be like God. We are born wanting to control our destiny rather than yield.

FLESH - MIND - SPIRIT = every part of us = TOTAL

“Depravity” just means ‘corrupted by sin and unable to do what God requires to be righteous.

The real bottom line of TOTAL DEPRAVITY is nothing more complicated than “Men cannot choose God without help from God”. If you believe Ephesians 2:1-10 tells the truth, then you believe in the “T” of TULIP.

 

[JD731]

Why this is wrong is;

6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.

8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed


24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

25 As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.

26 And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.

30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.

Since Hosea is quoted, did you ever think it would be beneficial to read the prophecy and see what it says and why he reference it here at exactly this time he is speaking about gentiles in the context of mercy and becoming a child of God? I doubt you have a clue about what that prophecy says and here you are acting like you are an expert student of bible truth.

God knows of only three kinds of people on the earth. Jews, gentiles and the church of God. Israel is in a covenant relationship with God from their very beginning in Gen 12. He considers the 12 tribes of Israel collectively as his son. You may read about this in Exodus 6 where he deals with Pharaoh However he divides this one nation of 12 tribes into two nations and called the northern 10 tribes Ephraim or Israel and the other two tribes Judah. He has separate prophecies for those nations after that and eventually cuts Israel off from the covenants and drives her out of the land and proclaims that she is no longer his people.As so, Israel is considered as gentiles and is under gentile authority while in their lands. However, in the same breath of the prophecy he proclaims that he will visit this people, not as the children of Abraham but as the children of God. Of course this requires a new birth for these people and when Jesus Christ came God remembered them and raised up 12 apostles to take the gospel of Jesus Christ to them. Peter and James wrote letters to them and spoke much about this new birth, not of Abraham but of God. Peter quoted the same verse in his chapter 2 and Paul did in Rom 9.

Hosea and Isaiah were contemporaries and one went to Israel to prophesy of them and the other went to Judah to tell about them. This is important to know.

Isa 1:1 The vision of Isaiah the son of Amoz, which he saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem in the days of Uzziah, Jotham, Ahaz, [and] Hezekiah, kings of Judah.
Ho 1:1 The word of the LORD that came unto Hosea, the son of Beeri, in the days of Uzziah, Jotham, Ahaz, [and] Hezekiah, kings of Judah, and in the days of Jeroboam the son of Joash, king of Israel.

There is nothing in Romans 9 about you Iconoclast, and there is nothing special about you in the eyes of God that would make him desire to save you over most other sinners in the world. Exalting yourself over other sinners will one day bring about the worst penalty one can know about.

 

[atpollard]

Yeah, so. He foreknew them, he predestinated them, he called them, he justified them, and glorified them. I believe that. But it starts with foreknowledge.

God knew the people, as individuals, before he predestined them.
The “foreknew” is about God being deeply personal and relational, it is not about “knowledge”. God did not choose YOU because He knew what you would do or say, rather God chose YOU because He knew YOU and wanted YOU.

It is BECAUSE God chose you that you did and said the things that you did and said. Read John 6 and John 10 and Ephesians 1 and Ephesians 2. See that it is the story of GOD claiming YOU for himself. HIS draw. HIS sheep. HIS gift. HIS mercy. HIS love. For HIS children whom HE knew … foreknew … knew even before HE predestined and called and justified them.

 

[atpollard]

There is nothing in Romans 9 about you Iconoclast, and there is nothing special about you in the eyes of God that would make him desire to save you over most other sinners in the world. Exalting yourself over other sinners will one day bring about the worst penalty one can know about.

[Romans 9:23-24 NASB20]

And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon objects of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory, namely us, whom He also called, not only from among Jews, but also from among Gentiles,​

It would appear that your copy of Romans 9 is missing verse 24.

 

[Guido]

God knew the people, as individuals, before he predestined them.
The “foreknew” is about God being deeply personal and relational, it is not about “knowledge”. God did not choose YOU because He knew what you would do or say, rather God chose YOU because He knew YOU and wanted YOU.


It is BECAUSE God chose you that you did and said the things that you did and said. Read John 6 and John 10 and Ephesians 1 and Ephesians 2. See that it is the story of GOD claiming YOU for himself. HIS draw. HIS sheep. HIS gift. HIS mercy. HIS love. For HIS children whom HE knew … foreknew … knew even before HE predestined and called and justified them.

So God made some Christians commit suicide because he foreknew and loved them?

 

[JD731]

It DEMANDS no such thing.
The context does not even suggest it.
Abraham, Isaac and Jacob are hardly DESERVING of glorification for their actions recorded in scripture. They are a monument to God’s grace. All of Romans is threaded with an overarching theme of “no difference between Jews and Gentiles” and “God, not man”.

The theme of Romans and the whole New Testament is the "gospel of God," the gospel that exactly opposite from the Calvinists gospel. This phrase is mentioned 7 times in scripture, thus putting the stamp of completion on this doctrine and 3 times Paul calls it "my gospel," because it is the gospel of grace for the whole world. The number 10 is associated with the gentiles and so the gospel of God is mentioned 10 times in the New Testament.

I am not guessing about this because Paul states he was directly chosen of God to take his gospel to gentiles that he has made us partakers with the Jews in the glorious gospel of his Son, Jesus Christ, who died for the whole world and was risen from the grave. Below is the nutshell verse for the doctrine of the gospel of God.

Ro 16:24 The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ [be] with you all. Amen.
25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,
26 But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:
27 To God only wise, [be] glory through Jesus Christ for ever. Amen.

Paul opens and closes the epistle to the Romans, the seat of gentile world power, with the gospel of God. The very first thing that God wrote to gentiles in the placement of the epistles is this sentence;

Ro 1:1 Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called [to be] an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God,

The good news of God is that he has opened the door of salvation to the gentile nations though the death, burial, and resurrection of his son Jesus Christ.

The first letter that God had Paul to write to gentiles was Galatians in 49 AD and it the first sentence ever written to gentiles from God was the gospel of Jesus Christ;

Ga 1:1 Paul, an apostle, (not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead)

What a wonderful and gracious God we serve. All praise and glory to him and all thanksgiving that he he has sent us such a gospel as this.

 

[JD731]

[Romans 9:23-24 NASB20]

And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon objects of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory, namely us, whom He also called, not only from among Jews, but also from among Gentiles,​

It would appear that your copy of Romans 9 is missing verse 24.

And the saying is brought to pass that the "Father has hidden these things from the wise and prudent and revealed them unto babes."

You missed the whole point and I do not think you have the capacity to understand it.

 

[Guido]

I just want to clarify that when I used the word "illuminate" I did not mean it in the same way that it is used in Hebrews. Those illuminated, or enlightened, having fallen away, in Hebrews, are regenerated, but have defected from the truth of the gospel and gone into deliberate sin, the penalty for their actions being temporal judgment in this life and loss of rewards in God's kingdom.

 

[AustinC]

Since Hosea is quoted, did you ever think it would be beneficial to read the prophecy and see what it says and why he reference it here at exactly this time he is speaking about gentiles in the context of mercy and becoming a child of God? I doubt you have a clue about what that prophecy says and here you are acting like you are an expert student of bible truth.

God knows of only three kinds of people on the earth. Jews, gentiles and the church of God. Israel is in a covenant relationship with God from their very beginning in Gen 12. He considers the 12 tribes of Israel collectively as his son. You may read about this in Exodus 6 where he deals with Pharaoh However he divides this one nation of 12 tribes into two nations and called the northern 10 tribes Ephraim or Israel and the other two tribes Judah. He has separate prophecies for those nations after that and eventually cuts Israel off from the covenants and drives her out of the land and proclaims that she is no longer his people.As so, Israel is considered as gentiles and is under gentile authority while in their lands. However, in the same breath of the prophecy he proclaims that he will visit this people, not as the children of Abraham but as the children of God. Of course this requires a new birth for these people and when Jesus Christ came God remembered them and raised up 12 apostles to take the gospel of Jesus Christ to them. Peter and James wrote letters to them and spoke much about this new birth, not of Abraham but of God. Peter quoted the same verse in his chapter 2 and Paul did in Rom 9.

Hosea and Isaiah were contemporaries and one went to Israel to prophesy of them and the other went to Judah to tell about them. This is important to know.

Isa 1:1 The vision of Isaiah the son of Amoz, which he saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem in the days of Uzziah, Jotham, Ahaz, [and] Hezekiah, kings of Judah.
Ho 1:1 The word of the LORD that came unto Hosea, the son of Beeri, in the days of Uzziah, Jotham, Ahaz, [and] Hezekiah, kings of Judah, and in the days of Jeroboam the son of Joash, king of Israel.

There is nothing in Romans 9 about you Iconoclast, and there is nothing special about you in the eyes of God that would make him desire to save you over most other sinners in the world. Exalting yourself over other sinners will one day bring about the worst penalty one can know about.

JD, Israel is not in Covenant relationship with God in Genesis 12. In fact, Israel isn't alive.
In Genesis 12, Abraham is in covenant relationship and in that covenant God promises to bless all the nations through Abraham. Israel does not come into direct covenant with God until Mount Sinai when God establishes the Old Covenant with Israel.
At the diaspora of Judah, God tells Jeremiah and Ezekiel about a New Covenant to come.
Jesus comes and tells us he is the New Covenant.

Now pay attention to Paul's brilliant argument that all persons who ever were redeemed received their redemption and were justified by faith alone. See how Paul brings in election in Romans 8 and then continues it in Romans 9. It is in Romans 9 where Paul makes elective distinction between Abraham and all others in Ur. He makes distinction between Isaac and Ishmael. He makes distinction between Esau and Jacob (Israel). He tells us that election is not by virtue of bloodline, but by virtue of the promise, so that not all physical Israel is actually Israel. Harken back to Romans 2 where Paul had said a Jew is not a Jew by virtue of physical circumcision.
The covenant with Israel was finished at the cross. It was completely finalized in 70CE when God destroyed Jerusalem.
To the final point: Romans 9 is specifically stating that God's election is pointing exactly to every believer from every nation tribe and tongue, meaning this passage is about Iconoclast, AustinC and even JD.

 

[atpollard]

So God made some Christians commit suicide because he foreknew and loved them?

Stating facts not in evidence.

1. Who committed suicide?
2. How do you know who belongs to Christ? (Matthew 7:21-23)
3. Where is the evidence that God made anyone commit suicide?

 

[atpollard]

The theme of Romans and the whole New Testament is the "gospel of God," the gospel that exactly opposite from the Calvinists gospel.

This I can agree with. The Doctrines of Grace told me that God loved me before the foundation of the earth, so I can have confidence that His love will never fail even if I stumble and need to beg forgiveness. That was “Good News”.

You proclaim that scripture is for Jews and not for Gentiles and those of us that believe that God has always loved us will receive the worst punishment imaginable. That is NOT “Good News”, that is “Very Bad News”. (Is there a Greek word like ‘gospel’ that means “very bad news”?)

 

[Reformed1689]

I believe Calvinists imply God is the author of sin.

Then you do not know Calvinism and should not argue against something you do not know/understand.

 

[Iconoclast]

Since Hosea is quoted, did you ever think it would be beneficial to read the prophecy and see what it says and why he reference it here at exactly this time he is speaking about gentiles in the context of mercy and becoming a child of God? I doubt you have a clue about what that prophecy says and here you are acting like you are an expert student of bible truth.

God knows of only three kinds of people on the earth. Jews, gentiles and the church of God. Israel is in a covenant relationship with God from their very beginning in Gen 12. He considers the 12 tribes of Israel collectively as his son. You may read about this in Exodus 6 where he deals with Pharaoh However he divides this one nation of 12 tribes into two nations and called the northern 10 tribes Ephraim or Israel and the other two tribes Judah. He has separate prophecies for those nations after that and eventually cuts Israel off from the covenants and drives her out of the land and proclaims that she is no longer his people.As so, Israel is considered as gentiles and is under gentile authority while in their lands. However, in the same breath of the prophecy he proclaims that he will visit this people, not as the children of Abraham but as the children of God. Of course this requires a new birth for these people and when Jesus Christ came God remembered them and raised up 12 apostles to take the gospel of Jesus Christ to them. Peter and James wrote letters to them and spoke much about this new birth, not of Abraham but of God. Peter quoted the same verse in his chapter 2 and Paul did in Rom 9.

Hosea and Isaiah were contemporaries and one went to Israel to prophesy of them and the other went to Judah to tell about them. This is important to know.

Isa 1:1 The vision of Isaiah the son of Amoz, which he saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem in the days of Uzziah, Jotham, Ahaz, [and] Hezekiah, kings of Judah.
Ho 1:1 The word of the LORD that came unto Hosea, the son of Beeri, in the days of Uzziah, Jotham, Ahaz, [and] Hezekiah, kings of Judah, and in the days of Jeroboam the son of Joash, king of Israel.

There is nothing in Romans 9 about you Iconoclast, and there is nothing special about you in the eyes of God that would make him desire to save you over most other sinners in the world. Exalting yourself over other sinners will one day bring about the worst penalty one can know about.

You try to avoid the truth presented to you, I get it...
8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.

9 So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.

14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

 

[Reformed1689]

The word in the Greek translated into foreknow means to know beforehand.

Right, which is not the same as foresee.

 

[SavedByGrace]

Based on God eternal CHOICE, He has ELECTED a certain FEW to ETERNAL LIFE, this taking place BEFORE THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD. These FEW are those with NO FREE WILL, and are ENABLED by God and therefore WILL BE SAVED.

What those who believe in this NONSENSE will never be alble to show from the Bible, is WHY even BOTHER to preach the Gospel to them in the first place??? It is not that these CANNOT come, or REFUSE to come, as they have NO WILL, and are basically MACHINES programmed by God!

The Reformed/Calvinist we bang-on about John 6:44, "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day". BUT, they won't tell you, that DRAWS in the Greek is ἑλκύω, and means to DRAG, as when a persons is DRAGGED into a courtroom! WHY the need to FORCE someone to go to Jesus Christ, IF they have been already ELECTED to be saved?

In Luke 13, Jesus speaks of the Narrow Gate, which is to heaven, in verse 24 He says, "Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able". STRIVE, ἀγωνίζομαι, that is, "to contend, struggle, with difficulties". WHY the need for those already ELECTED to salvation, to STRUGGLE, CONTEND WITH???

The Bible is AGAINST what the Reformed/Calvinist, try to FORCE passages like John 6, Romans 9, etc, etc!

 

[Guido]

"No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; "

I don't see any way one can possibly derive something Calvinistic from this statement. All it says it say without the Father drawing someone to Christ, he cannot come to him. But he also said, "And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw ALL men unto me. To me, it seems that without Romans 9, they have nothing to base their doctrine on.