A.W. Tozer

[AustinC]

One absurd and false claim after another.

Did you address how God crediting our faith fits into your view? Nope -

Accepting God's gift is not salvation as Soils #2 and 3 of Matthew 13 document.

Yes, obeying God is living by faith, not at issue.

My view does not equate obedience to God with Salvation. My view equates God crediting or not our faith as righteousness with Salvation. We do not save ourselves, God chooses to save us or not. Salvation depends of God alone, Romans 9:16

Moses gained approval by faith. But Moses did wait in Abraham's bosom, as did the rest of the OT Saints until Christ died and then was led by Jesus to heaven. There is no requirement stated in scripture whereby those spirits in Abraham's bosom could not, by the Almighty, be brought temporarily to the transfiguration. Thus your assertion has no basis in scripture or logic.

Where did Moses gain God's approval by faith?
1) Moses kills an Egyptian attempting to be a deliverer without God.
2) Moses doubts his calling and gets Aaron to do the speaking.
3) Moses won't circumcise his boys and Zipporah has to save Moses life.
4) Moses strikes the Rock a second time and gets banned from entering the Promised Land.

Van, the constant theme of the Bible is that God chooses wretched, faithless, people, by grace, and then sanctifies them and justifies them by the faith God gives them, not the faith they conjured up on their own.

You keep regurgitating this pathetic falsehood of yours that has been utterly debunked. It's like a child who just keeps coming back with a bottle of battery acid and thinks it's water.

 

[Van]

Where did Moses gain God's approval by faith?
1) Moses kills an Egyptian attempting to be a deliverer without God.
2) Moses doubts his calling and gets Aaron to do the speaking.
3) Moses won't circumcise his boys and Zipporah has to save Moses life.
4) Moses strikes the Rock a second time and gets banned from entering the Promised Land.

Van, the constant theme of the Bible is that God chooses wretched, faithless, people, by grace, and then sanctifies them and justifies them by the faith God gives them, not the faith they conjured up on their own.

You keep regurgitating this pathetic falsehood of yours that has been utterly debunked. It's like a child who just keeps coming back with a bottle of battery acid and thinks it's water.

First you either have not read Hebrews 11, or you pretend it does address Moses.
The theme of the Bible is God chooses people whose faith He credits as righteousness. Did you not read Romans 4?
Your absurd claim that God instills faith rather than credits the person's faith is once again a direction rejection of scripture. Whose faith did God credit. "his faith!" (Abraham's faith)

Did you address how God crediting our faith fits into your view? Nope -

 

[Revmitchell]

Where did Moses gain God's approval by faith?
1) Moses kills an Egyptian attempting to be a deliverer without God.
2) Moses doubts his calling and gets Aaron to do the speaking.
3) Moses won't circumcise his boys and Zipporah has to save Moses life.
4) Moses strikes the Rock a second time and gets banned from entering the Promised Land.

Van, the constant theme of the Bible is that God chooses wretched, faithless, people, by grace, and then sanctifies them and justifies them by the faith God gives them, not the faith they conjured up on their own.

You keep regurgitating this pathetic falsehood of yours that has been utterly debunked. It's like a child who just keeps coming back with a bottle of battery acid and thinks it's water.

“conjured up on their own” So who is it that believes that?

 

[JonC]

I've been noticing that lately.

Redundancy is a constant on the BB.

 

[Van]

Denial of Biblical Truth seems to be a constant on this BB.
1) Where did Moses gain approval by faith? This question was asked and not one Calvinist posted Hebrews 11.

As far as I can tell from their collective postings, they claim none of the OT Saints gained approval by faith. Not one...

 

[timtofly]

My view does not equate obedience to God with Salvation. My view equates God crediting or not our faith as righteousness with Salvation. We do not save ourselves, God chooses to save us or not.

I did not equate obedience to God as salvation. You really know how to defeat your own logic, but you cannot change God's Word. God chose to redeem all mankind, not just certain humans. That there are different soil types is not based on God's direct refusal to save the majority of humanity. The soil is a parable, not a literal disposition. It shows the excuses humans give. One excuse humans give is that God only chooses some and not others. That doctrine is the stony heart excuse. Saying free will does not exist is creating a stony heart.

I never once claimed we save ourselves. The point about God crediting their faith as righteousness, the way you keep forcing the issue, implies one's faith can save them. Not a chance of that happening. The Atonement is the only means of salvation. The Atonement is a free gift. The gift accepted or denied is a free will choice. Making a decision does not save a person, God does. Not making that decision ever will condemn a person.

 

[Van]

I did not equate obedience to God as salvation. You really know how to defeat your own logic, but you cannot change God's Word. God chose to redeem all mankind, not just certain humans. That there are different soil types is not based on God's direct refusal to save the majority of humanity. The soil is a parable, not a literal disposition. It shows the excuses humans give. One excuse humans give is that God only chooses some and not others. That doctrine is the stony heart excuse. Saying free will does not exist is creating a stony heart.

I never once claimed we save ourselves. The point about God crediting their faith as righteousness, the way you keep forcing the issue, implies one's faith can save them. Not a chance of that happening. The Atonement is the only means of salvation. The Atonement is a free gift. The gift accepted or denied is a free will choice. Making a decision does not save a person, God does. Not making that decision ever will condemn a person.

Please stop. You are posting one falsehood after another.
1) I did not attempt to change God's word.
2) God did not chose to redeem all mankind.
3) The types of soils are in the explanation of the parable, thus a literal disposition.
4) The types of soils do not show human excuses, but God's assessment.
5) God only chooses some and not others is true! Many are called but few are chosen.
6) Acknowledging are range of choices is limited by God acknowledges biblical truth. Consider God hardening hearts.

 

[timtofly]

Please stop. You are posting one falsehood after another.
1) I did not attempt to change God's word.
2) God did not chose to redeem all mankind.
3) The types of soils are in the explanation of the parable, thus a literal disposition.
4) The types of soils do not show human excuses, but God's assessment.
5) God only chooses some and not others is true! Many are called but few are chosen.
6) Acknowledging are range of choices is limited by God acknowledges biblical truth. Consider God hardening hearts.

God did choose to redeem all mankind. John 3:16.

There are reasons people reject God's Word. They are still excuses.

The "many are called" are about discipleship. Few choose to become close disciples.

God hardened those who reject God, so they loose all ability to return to God. God does not harden hearts from conception.

 

[Van]

God did choose to redeem all mankind. John 3:16.

There are reasons people reject God's Word. They are still excuses.

The "many are called" are about discipleship. Few choose to become close disciples.

God hardened those who reject God, so they loose all ability to return to God. God does not harden hearts from conception.

1) God hardened the hearts of some (Romans 11) thus did not choose redeem all mankind. However, God does offer redemption to everyone believing into Him.
2) They types of soils reflects God's assessment, not the "excuses" of people.
3) See Matthew 22:13-14. Those not chosen are cast into "outer darkness" thus salvation, and not discipleship is in view.
4) Yes, once a person is "hardened" they have lost the ability to understand the gospel invitation. And Yes, God does not harden the lost by making them "sinners" such that they cannot understand spiritual milk.

 

[AustinC]

[/COLOR]God did choose to redeem all mankind. John 3:16.

There are reasons people reject God's Word. They are still excuses.

The "many are called" are about discipleship. Few choose to become close disciples.

God hardened those who reject God, so they loose all ability to return to God. God does not harden hearts from conception.

I take your statement to mean you are a universalist. Is that correct?

 

[timtofly]

1) God hardened the hearts of some (Romans 11) thus did not choose redeem all mankind. However, God does offer redemption to everyone believing into Him.
2) They types of soils reflects God's assessment, not the "excuses" of people.
3) See Matthew 22:13-14. Those not chosen are cast into "outer darkness" thus salvation, and not discipleship is in view.
4) Yes, once a person is "hardened" they have lost the ability to understand the gospel invitation. And Yes, God does not harden the lost by making them "sinners" such that they cannot understand spiritual milk.

So many does not mean all? You claim some are born with a hardened heart, and doomed from conception.

 

[timtofly]

I take your statement to mean you are a universalist. Is that correct?

Is there a difference between the Atonement and forgiveness?

 

[Van]

So many does not mean all? You claim some are born with a hardened heart, and doomed from conception.

Why post falsehood? Please do not waste my time.

 

[timtofly]

Why post falsehood? Please do not waste my time.

Then stop wasting time by declaring the Atonement is not sufficient to redeem all of mankind. God never predestined any one to reject the free gift of Salvation.

 

[Van]

Then stop wasting time by declaring the Atonement is not sufficient to redeem all of mankind. God never predestined any one to reject the free gift of Salvation.

More falsehoods, but no quotes. Your false charges suggest you think I hold to a Calvinist view. That takes the cake for twaddle.

 

[timtofly]

More falsehoods, but no quotes. Your false charges suggest you think I hold to a Calvinist view. That takes the cake for twaddle.

You are the one claiming the Atonement is limited. You charged me constantly with telling lies. Either you do not understand a word I have posted, or you hold to an opinion totally opposite of what I have posted. Your own words betray your belief system.

 

[Van]

You are the one claiming the Atonement is limited. You charged me constantly with telling lies. Either you do not understand a word I have posted, or you hold to an opinion totally opposite of what I have posted. Your own words betray your belief system.

Yet another attempt to hurl charges against me, but no content. Christ died for all mankind, those to be saved and those never to be saved. That view is not the Calvinist doctrine of Limited Atonement.

1) God hardened the hearts of some (Romans 11) thus did not choose redeem all mankind. However, God does offer redemption to everyone believing into Him.
2) They types of soils reflects God's assessment, not the "excuses" of people.
3) See Matthew 22:13-14. Those not chosen are cast into "outer darkness" thus salvation, and not discipleship is in view.
4) Yes, once a person is "hardened" they have lost the ability to understand the gospel invitation. And Yes, God does not harden the lost by making them "sinners" such that they cannot understand spiritual milk.

 

[timtofly]

Yet another attempt to hurl charges against me, but no content. Christ died for all mankind, those to be saved and those never to be saved. That view is not the Calvinist doctrine of Limited Atonement.

1) God hardened the hearts of some (Romans 11) thus did not choose redeem all mankind. However, God does offer redemption to everyone believing into Him.
2) They types of soils reflects God's assessment, not the "excuses" of people.
3) See Matthew 22:13-14. Those not chosen are cast into "outer darkness" thus salvation, and not discipleship is in view.
4) Yes, once a person is "hardened" they have lost the ability to understand the gospel invitation. And Yes, God does not harden the lost by making them "sinners" such that they cannot understand spiritual milk.

So why attack me then, with no cause?

Either you just like attacking other people's post, or you do not understand where they are coming from. You replied to my post. I only pointed out why your attack was wrong.

Can you even name 7 people who God hardened their heart from God's Word? Is not every single soul unique and precious to God, or you just assume there are only two types of souls, period?

 

[Martin Marprelate]

1) God hardened the hearts of some (Romans 11) thus did not choose [to] redeem all mankind. However, God does offer redemption to everyone believing into Him.

You do realise that that is Calvinism, don't you?

 

[atpollard]

God never predestined any one to reject the free gift of Salvation.

An interesting and difficult question. When God created Adam, He knew that not all would believe (definition of omniscient). So by creating Adam and the Tree, did God not "predestine" that some would reject the free gift?

God IS the creator and the END did not come as a surprise ... so even if God did not predestine "anyone" (specific), God did predestine "someone" (general) would reject the gift. The result was built into the system (and God planted the tree that started things rolling). God cannot shrug and say "That's not what I planned to happen."