The Value of Books

[JesusFan]

"To think is admirable, but not if we mean thereby to supplement the teachings of Christ....The evil is that the wise men add their own inferences to the facts as if they were of equal authority. What, then, is to be done? Shall we alter the deductions of the fallible or try to shape the declarations of the infallible? The question is not hard to answer....Whatever others may do, it is the delight of those who have felt the overwhelming power of the divine Spirit to find in Christ the wisdom with which their intellect is more than content." —Charles Spurgeon, "Forts Demolished, and Prisoners Taken"

Supplement as in NOT adding to sacred scriptures, but as to in addition to, in order to read what those gifts by God for insight into the scriptures have penned down for us!

 

[JD731]

There will never be any author not in the Bible that has perfect doctrines and theology, but Calvin was much better then vast majority of theology today, that ranges from fluff to outright heresy!

Sorry, but the teaching of John Calvin was a small tumor to begin with, localized in the body with the pain being limited. However, over time it has metastasized and now it is adversely sickening the whole body. It reminds me of what Jesus said in one of the seven parables that he gives in Matt 13 which prophetically chronicles this entire church age and gives the character proceeding forward. He said, "a little leaven leavens the whole lump." Isn't that what has happened after two thousand years of church history? Ironically, he said a woman put the leaven in it and the universal church is the mother of the Calvinist philosophy. It was three measures of meal that was affected and neither Shem, Ham, or Japheth, the inhabitants of the world, have escaped this leaven.

Jesus said rhetorically, "when I come again will I find faith on the earth." Paul said at the time of the end of the church age it would be marked by "deceiving and being deceived." Here is one some of the folks here will identify with; They will "heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears." The heap of teachers (not pastors) will probably be writing plenty of books.

Beware! The man who gets deceived might be you.

 

[Jerome]

"You may whet your appetite for logic, but you cannot with your heart believe unto righteousness while you occupy your thoughts, your tongues, or your pens wrangling about Calvinism and Arminianism, sublapsarianism and supra-lapsarianism, or any of the endless controversies of the schoolmen and sectarians! 'Lovest thou me?'...Canst thou give an affirmative answer? Will thy conscience, thy life, thy God, attest the verity of thy love to Him? then, though thou be no doctor of divinity, though thou canst not decipher the niceties of systematic theology, though thou art unable to rebut one in a thousand of the subtleties of the adversary, yet you have an unction from the Holy One! thy love approves thee, thy faith has saved thee, and He whom thy soul loveth will keep thee, for time and for eternity thou art blessed." —Charles Spurgeon, "Do I Love the Lord or No?"

 

[JesusFan]

Sorry, but the teaching of John Calvin was a small tumor to begin with, localized in the body with the pain being limited. However, over time it has metastasized and now it is adversely sickening the whole body. It reminds me of what Jesus said in one of the seven parables that he gives in Matt 13 which prophetically chronicles this entire church age and gives the character proceeding forward. He said, "a little leaven leavens the whole lump." Isn't that what has happened after two thousand years of church history? Ironically, he said a woman put the leaven in it and the universal church is the mother of the Calvinist philosophy. It was three measures of meal that was affected and neither Shem, Ham, or Japheth, the inhabitants of the world, have escaped this leaven.

Jesus said rhetorically, "when I come again will I find faith on the earth." Paul said at the time of the end of the church age it would be marked by "deceiving and being deceived." Here is one some of the folks here will identify with; They will "heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears." The heap of teachers (not pastors) will probably be writing plenty of books.

Beware! The man who gets deceived might be you.

Calvinism in regards to Sotierology proper much better then the other alternatives in the church!

 

[JD731]

Calvinism in regards to Sotierology proper much better then the other alternatives in the church!

You will admit it has limited effects and limited potential. I can see where someone who fancies themselves in the very small number who have achieved salvation would champion it much more than anyone else.

 

[Iconoclast]

JonC,

Lets look briefly at how JonC prizes the reformers and puritans

There is a sickness in our churches as professing Christians abandon God's Word to follow men.

Owen is not relevant today insofar as theology goes, but from a historical perspective I enjoy reading his books.

Owen is just is not a teacher God gave to a congregation in our century (he was given to our brothers long gone).

JonC said: ↑
Why the reliance on men? Why not God's Word?

I am suggesting that John Owen did not die for our sins. John Owen is not our authority. John Owen was a fallible man. And yes, there are areas where John Owen relied on his tradition over Scripture.

Stop following men. Follow God. Rely not on men but on every word written in the Scriptures. Lean not on your own understanding but on God's Word.

[QUOTEBUT you focus on the works of Reformed Christians. Your "diet" is restricted to men who "tickle your ears".

I'm not saying it is bad to read the opinions of men like John Owen, John Gill and John Knox. But it is bad to disciple yourself under the teaching of men.][/QUOTE]

Just try to set aside the teaching of men and study God's Word. That is the fire tone I will slways point you - not to the Reformers but to God.

The first step is to stop relying on theories, philosophy, and what you think the Bible "teaches" when "properly understood".

Your appeal is often not to Scripture but to Reformed Theology and long dead Puritian writers.

We have to stick with God's Word. When we don't we risk drifting, as you have done, into conjecture and philosophy. When you choose what Reformed teachers to follow it is ultimately you - not God, not God's Word - guiding your own understanding.

Take some time to pray and study, without adding to Scripture. Look at God's Word, not man's commentary on God's Word. I think you will find that Scripture is sufficient, that it teaches exactly what it says.

JonC,

@SavedByGrace is right. You do have a habit of posting your personal views that usually are not what the Bible actually teaches then you try to get out of your theological nonsense by trying to make others look unbiblical.

news flash...every one posts their own views

I never once said that Christians should not read books.

Yes...the above quotes are only from one thread, the hebrews 2 thread.

Your insistence on trying to make members who disagree with you look bad by falsely accusing them of positions they never held is a serious issue. It shows your character.

Speaking of character, almost every cal on this board and some non cals have questioned the honest of your posts. Many right on this thread.
Some solid pastors and teachers no longer post here becaus eof this very thing. I do answer back after awhile, and the non cals do not like it because their error is exposed.....Like when you said things happen by Chance


[QUOTE]When you devolve into falsely accusing brothers in Christ you lose your argument. It demonstrates you are unable to defend your position, are too proud to admit it, and have such a spiritual deficiency that you are willing to make false accusations.[/QUOTE]

Here is the exact problem; You suggest
1]I am falsely accusing people

2]I am unable to defend my position

3]am to proud to admit it

4]have a spiritual deficiency

5]willing to amke false accusations

You are the one doing this to All cals.They have spoken upseveral right on this thread.

If this is not true then provide a post where I say books are bad, that we should not read books.

I put a few up, but there are many more...

You can't. The reason is you approach this board as you approach Scripture. You see what you want to see and ignore what is there.

I can and will, but it takes time, and when I continue to expose your nonsense you will deflect and deny like you have been doing, except now everyone is looking for it.

To restate what I have actually posted - Christians can learn a lot from books, from the experiences and ideas of those who have gone before us and who are here with us.

You say that now, but the small sample above says something else, does'nt it?

Theology has to remain relevant (from a theological perspective, Owen is not relevant.

...

This post alone shows the absurdity of your posting. No one anytime soon is going to improve upon the Grace and Duty of being Spiritually Minded, Sin and Temptation, Mortification of sin, which are all intensely relevant

You need to focus on God's Word rather than books because you have allowed yourself to be carried away by vain philosophy (it not only matters what you believe but why you believe it).

So you profess to be an advocate of study books on one hand, but now suggest they are not relevant and to turn away from them
Can anyone here recall JONC that great lover of puritans and reformers, offering quotes from any of them, being he claims to be so keen on them?

 

[JesusFan]

You will admit it has limited effects and limited potential. I can see where someone who fancies themselves in the very small number who have achieved salvation would champion it much more than anyone else.

NONE of us who hold to it see us meriting salvation, or achieving it, as that is do all to the grace of God!

 

[JD731]

NONE of us who hold to it see us meriting salvation, or achieving it, as that is do all to the grace of God!

It depends on how you look at the words meriting salvation. Something has made you more attractive to God than the vast majority of the human race. Defining God as having much grace for one is the same thing as defining him as having no grace for the other. No? Some scripture writer called him the God of all grace.

 

[JonC]

JonC,

Lets look briefly at how JonC prizes the reformers and puritans

This is another false accusation. And another example of Icon's failure to command an even basic use of the English language.

I never condemned Reformed teachers.....quite the opposite.
[/QUOTE]
What I condemned we're people like Iconoclast who replace God's Word with the parts of Reformed teaching they like.

How many times has Iconoclast interacted with (not quoted....INTERACTED WITH) Scripture? Never. How many times has he quoted a passage and then offered select writings of Reformed preachers? That's all he does!!!

The problem is not John Owen or John Wesley. The problem are those like Iconoclast who just come short (very short) of worshipping the writings of those men.[/QUOTE]

I stand by what I said - what I believe - what you abhor - the Word of God is perfect and sufficient....it means what it says....it teaches what is written. Period.

 

[Iconoclast]

Here is more love for the reformers;

JonC has been all in on their writings as he now professesLets see how he esteems them

[QUOTEAgain, brother, you are proving my point. I have appealed to Scripture. You appeal to 17th century Reformed theology.][/QUOTE]

You are allowing yourself to be a follower of men (of dead Reformed theologians).

If you spent a fraction of the time you spend studying Reformed theology and works of theologians who "tickle your ears" on studying Scripture then you would have a chance of realizing your error.

[QUOTE Most often you drift into philosophy, Reformed theology, and the writings of men you have chosen to follow.You are wrong in the accusation that Scripture is mot enough, that God's Words are "empty husks" without Reformed philosophy, that God revealed His truth via progressive revelation, that the Bible is a bunch of "dots" that need connecting, that wecare to follow Reformed teachers as "given to the world" by God, that we rely not on God's Word but its "teachings when properly understood".][/QUOTE]

[QUOTEI encourage you to try to set aside the works of men for a few days and study the Word of God. Stick with Scripture. You will find it, believe it or not, sufficient and not lacking....far from the "empty husks" awaiting to be filled by Reformed teachers you imply it is.][/QUOTE]

When it comes to our redemption why should we place our faith in human understanding...in the philosophies of men??

The book that I have read is the Bibke. But no, I stopped reading works of men as an authority.

here from the where did the wrath of God go thread;
JonC,
Here are 8 helpful/insults offered by you that you do all the time.
1)[When it comes to our redemption why should we place our faith in human understanding...in the philosophies of men??[

No one has done this.You ignore the role of God given pastors and teaching to your own ascended master kind of pronouncements.
2)[God gave us His Word. God's Word is not, as you claim, an "empty husk" when not accompanied by Reformed teachings.]
When you offer it out of context ignoring the words in the text, the descriptor empty husks will suffice as you in reality have taken the core of the meaning away.

3)[I want the best for you, brother. You have a zeal to share the gospel. But rather than experiencing the meat of the Word you suckled on the milk and turned back to "worldly wisdom" and humanistic philosophy.]
Now you edify by suggesting milk,worldly wisdom,humanistic philosophy, are being offered by Turretin, Vos, Owen,Pink, Matthew Henry, etc.
They cannot come close to you,lol.
4)[Please consider that God gave us His Word so that we woukd understand, so that we would be equipped to teach the Word. Scripture is co.pkete and perfect because God is complete and perfect. ]
So...when Reformed teachers present it,they are not equipped, but you our ascended master post....you are equipped....starting to see a pattern.
5)[You do not need to continue exchanging God's Word for what men who "tickle your ears" tell you God is teaching. His Word is right before you.]
You cannot answer the links or the teaching of the Cals on here, so you ridicule as if it will elevate your posts. It is not working...we see right through it

6)[Just accept Scripture as true...not as pointing you to another "teaching" but as actually teaching what is written.]
I do with understanding.
7)[Your zeal to share the gospel is overshadowed by it much too often not being the gospel that you are sharing. It I'd past time that you move on to "solid food". You had the milk but tried formula, and there remained. Seek out the meat of Scripture. Leave man's opinions and philosophies behind.]
Yet another insult that is false.
8)[I promise, you will be better for it. If you need help, simply ask. But get to Scripture as quickly as you are able.]
Lol...maybe you need to examine your own ways..

#45Iconoclast, Mar 19, 2022

 

[Iconoclast]

from that thread;
JonC,

[Please quote where I said there is a difference between what Scriptures teaches and what the Anabaptists teach. We can go from there.

Or....were you making a false accusation?

Please post where I confessed to being influenced by Anabaptist writings (I do not hold Anabaptist Theology).

Or....were you making false accusations?

This is a false claim. I never said that I agree or disagree with Anabaotist Theology when it comes to this topic. You are again making assumptions.

There is not one Anabaptist's view. Do you understand what the Anabaptists are and were????]

I know who they were.lol

YOU DO NOT LIKE MY POSTS?

YOU THINK MY POSTS ARE FALSE ACCUSATIONS?

My last dozen posts were copy and paste of your posts...lol.
I just reversed what you do to us.
I copied your false accusations and pasted them back to you.
How do you like your own posts?
Look at the posts.....it is your words pasted on this page...do you see how foolish your posting is?

We asked yo u to stop doing it, but you would not....do you see why now?

#127Iconoclast, Mar 20, 2022

JonC responded;

You backtrack to cover your errors by falsely claiming you cut and pasted my posts....you didn't. I never accused you of following Anabaptist teachers. I never said that Anabaptist teaching and Scripture were different (or the same).

I took quotes from this thread from your posts...If you noticed I repeated the same verses from Jn.3, each time you asked me to clarify. That is what you do to us. We ask you to clarify....you repeat .he bore our sins, he bore our sins...over and over....Then I quoted sentences and a few times direct paragraphs you posted, of course I had to switch your name for mine, so you would not catch on too fast,lol
I like your indignation as you claimed "false accusations",l ol that is exactly what you have done to each of us

 

[JonC]

@Iconoclast ,

Please consider your posts.

I have not disparaged Reformers. They were dead long before I was born.

You know that I have read and continue to read Reformed theologians and pastors (both of the past and current).

So I cannot understand why you continue with insulting me rather than addressing our true disagreements.

Do I believe the Reformers we're, for the most part, godly men? Yes. So we're many opposed to the Reformers and criticized then for stopping short in terms of moving from the RCC to Scripture.

Do I believe we can learn from their works? Yes. This is obvious as I have said so many times. We can learn from John Wesley,'s writings too.

Where we disagree is you seem to think that God gave Reformed teachers of the past to teach the church. What about free-will theologians that God gave to their congregations? Do you study their books? What about those who wrote before the Reformation?

You choose which books you want to read. But you often dismiss other God given teachers.

The problem, however, goes deeper. And that is the disagreement you are trying to obscure by slander, insults, and false accusations.

The disagreement goes to authority. Let's just summarize with Owen.

You and I both enjoy reading John Owen. You and I both find his books useful.

Where we differ is you believe God gave you John Owen's books as your teacher. You quote him as an authority. You dismiss some of his theology but keep what "tickles your ears".

I stand firm that foundational doctrine has to be written in God's Word (in the objective text, not subjective ideas about what we think is being taught).

What you are doing (your posts) are juvenile. They are not edifying and do not even come close to supporting your position. You are just having a fit ..an emotional outburst or temper tantrum. When you are done, stop crying, kicking the floor, take your fingers out of your ears and let's discuss the reasons why we disagree.

You are a grown man, a child of God, and my brother in Christ. Your behavior is beneath your calling.

 

[JesusFan]

It depends on how you look at the words meriting salvation. Something has made you more attractive to God than the vast majority of the human race. Defining God as having much grace for one is the same thing as defining him as having no grace for the other. No? Some scripture writer called him the God of all grace.

Did God favor the Jewish people in the OT because they had ANYTHING over any other group?
No, was due to His grace and choosing them to bring in the Messiah!

 

[JesusFan]

@Iconoclast ,

Please consider your posts.

I have not disparaged Reformers. They were dead long before I was born.

You know that I have read and continue to read Reformed theologians and pastors (both of the past and current).

So I cannot understand why you continue with insulting me rather than addressing our true disagreements.

Do I believe the Reformers we're, for the most part, godly men? Yes. So we're many opposed to the Reformers and criticized then for stopping short in terms of moving from the RCC to Scripture.

Do I believe we can learn from their works? Yes. This is obvious as I have said so many times. We can learn from John Wesley,'s writings too.

Where we disagree is you seem to think that God gave Reformed teachers of the past to teach the church. What about free-will theologians that God gave to their congregations? Do you study their books? What about those who wrote before the Reformation?

You choose which books you want to read. But you often dismiss other God given teachers.

The problem, however, goes deeper. And that is the disagreement you are trying to obscure by slander, insults, and false accusations.

The disagreement goes to authority. Let's just summarize with Owen.

You and I both enjoy reading John Owen. You and I both find his books useful.

Where we differ is you believe God gave you John Owen's books as your teacher. You quote him as an authority. You dismiss some of his theology but keep what "tickles your ears".

I stand firm that foundational doctrine has to be written in God's Word (in the objective text, not subjective ideas about what we think is being taught).

What you are doing (your posts) are juvenile. They are not edifying and do not even come close to supporting your position. You are just having a fit ..an emotional outburst or temper tantrum. When you are done, stop crying, kicking the floor, take your fingers out of your ears and let's discuss the reasons why we disagree.

You are a grown man, a child of God, and my brother in Christ. Your behavior is beneath your calling.

Do you accept the Pauline Justification that was the very center of the reformation?

 

[Martin Marprelate]

I think we were looking at different parts

Do you agree or disagree with this statement?



The comment had absolutely nothing to do with infant baptism. Infant baptism was not even a part of that exchange.

It was just Iconoclast added later to once again change his story to cover up his error. We have all seen this for years.

Where is this? Give me a link, please.

 

[JonC]

Where is this? Give me a link, please.

"JonC,

Hello JonC
Baptists reject many ideas
yes they do



[of those men you feel God gave to teach us]

My feelings have nothing to do with it. God has declared it.
11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;

12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:

13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;

15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:

16 From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.

This is crystal clear. They are given to prayer and study of the word, to edify and protect the saints. Teachers teach...that is what God has them to do. Teachers are a God given gift according to scripture.
It does not say he give readers to the church, it says teachers.
It does not say pastors and teachers can only read scripture over and over.
30 And Paul dwelt two whole years in his own hired house, and received all that came in unto him,

31 Preaching the kingdom of God, and teaching those things which concern the Lord Jesus Christ, with all confidence, no man forbidding him.

Paul taught, he did not just read with no explanation.


Yes...but they had the same scripture we do. They had the same Spirit.


There are no infallible teachers as God has put this treasure in earthen vessels;
7 But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.

No one says they are infallible. Padeo baptists are Padeo baptists because they think they make a biblical case from scripture. Baptists see another teaching on it.
Because Padeo baptists are wrong on this issue, does that mean they cannot be correct on most everything else?

If a Baptist does not read books by Owen or in our day Sinclair Ferguson, It shows defective thinking.



I have not read his ideas on slavery or the biblical case he offered. Slavery was in the the bible so again that is one issue.



Yeah, this sounds so pious. It is just me and God and my bible. I do not need to read Owen or anyone else...I got this.
Why this sounds good in reality it is ignorant. Why is that? Iconoclast.

Do you think Owen and all these men Did not have a bible? They did not pray? Many had command of the greek and hebrew.
To suggest that they did not ,is beyond preposterous.
Another thing....I have met several of the current men in person.
They are men yes, but men gifted by God. Most of them had a superior intellect and recall.
One such man and I were talking in the church library that was about the size of a cafeteria. I asked a doctrinal question. He got up and walked two thirds down the right side of the Library, picked a book of the shelf, turned to a page ,handed me the book, and said read the second and third paragraph.




I do not think they mislead at all, they teach from scripture.



The scripture says they are God given. Who are you to contradict God?

 

[JonC]

Do you accept the Pauline Justification that was the very center of the reformation?

I accept Pauline Justification (if you mean the other dead of justification confirmed by Paul in his epistles).

The idea at the center of the Reformation was Luther's - justification solely by faith. And yes, I agree.

 

[Salty]

Six hour warning -
This thread will be closed no sooner than 1 am EDT (Fri) / 10 pm PDT (Thr)

 

[Martin Marprelate]

May I have the link, please? I would like to read the original.

 

[JonC]

May I have the link, please? I would like to read the original.

It's there (hit the up arrow just past the words "Iconoclast said: " ). It is linked to the original.






I look forward to seeing exactly what you believe here (it will settle a little bet ).