Is it necessary to know how others addressed theological issues?

[JonC]

Do you hold that there is a wrath of the father that must be appeased and propitiated with by someone, and do you hold that one can saved apart from someone taking our deserved wrath and judgement?

And non psa are mainly those 2 groups I mentioned!

I am not going to entertain your posts, except when they directly address Scripture. You have a habit of just making declarations. I will say you are very wrong about your categorizations.

But rather than discussing what people believe, I will discuss Scripture with you.

 

[JesusFan]

I am not going to entertain your posts, except when they directly address Scripture. You have a habit of just making declarations. I will say you are very wrong about your categorizations.

But rather than discussing what people believe, I will discuss Scripture with you.

You refuse to discuss scriptures though my Brother, as you will state that we are just wrong and non scriptural!

As that is how you deal with the Calvinist brethren here on the Baptist Board whenever we attempt to discuss our theology from the bible

 

[JonC]

You refuse to discuss scriptures though my Brother, as you will state that we are just wrong and non scriptural!

As that is how you deal with the Calvinist brethren here on the Baptist Board whenever we attempt to discuss our theology from the bible

How do you know? You have never offered to discuss Scripture. You have, historically, just made statements like the one in the quote above.

Choose a passage and let's discuss it.

 

[JesusFan]

How do you know? You have never offered to discuss Scripture. You have, historically, just made statements like the one in the quote above.

Choose a passage and let's discuss it.

2 Corinthians 5:21

 

[JonC]

2 Corinthians 5:21

2 Corinthians 5:12–21 (NASB95): We are not again commending ourselves to you but are giving you an occasion to be proud of us, so that you will have an answer for those who take pride in appearance and not in heart.
13 For if we are beside ourselves, it is for God; if we are of sound mind, it is for you.
14 For the love of Christ controls us, having concluded this, that one died for all, therefore all died;
15 and He died for all, so that they who live might no longer live for themselves, but for Him who died and rose again on their behalf.
16 Therefore from now on we recognize no one according to the flesh; even though we have known Christ according to the flesh, yet now we know Him in this way no longer.
17 Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come.
18 Now all these things are from God, who reconciled us to Himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation,
19 namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation.
20 Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were making an appeal through us; we beg you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God.
21 He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

God made Christ, who knew no sin, to be sin on our behalf.
The reason is so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

Christ took upon Himself what was ours that He might give what is His (righteousness) to us. He took upon Himself out curse and had given us His blessing.

 

[canadyjd]

We agree. John is laying the foundation for this repeating theme of being “born of God”, which he will further explain in John 3 with the conversation with Nick at night.

More later

peace to you

Sorry, it’s more than a little “later”, but let’s continue.

So we both agree that the Sons of God in Chapter 1 of John is speaking of a spiritual birth. I noticed it says they are born by the will of God.

In John chapter 3, we have the encounter with Nick. John 3:8 says “the winds blows where it listhith (wills) … so is everyone born of the Spirit”

John is making a play on words here. The word “pneuma” is the same word used for wind and spirit. John says you can hear the sound of the wind but you don’t know where it comes from or where it’s going, so is everyone born of the “Spirit”.

Notice the statement the wind blows where it “wills” and the the connection to being born of the Spirit. I see a connection to chapter 1 that the sons of God are born by the will of God, and here where those who are born of the Spirit by the will of God Holy Spirit.

Do you see that?

peace to you

 

[JonC]

Sorry, it’s more than a little “later”, but let’s continue.

So we both agree that the Sons of God in Chapter 1 of John is speaking of a spiritual birth. I noticed it says they are born by the will of God.

In John chapter 3, we have the encounter with Nick. John 3:8 says “the winds blows where it listhith (wills) … so is everyone born of the Spirit”

John is making a play on words here. The word “pneuma” is the same word used for wind and spirit. John says you can hear the sound of the wind but you don’t know where it comes from or where it’s going, so is everyone born of the “Spirit”.

Notice the statement the wind blows where it “wills” and the the connection to being born of the Spirit. I see a connection to chapter 1 that the sons of God are born by the will of God, and here where those who are born of the Spirit by the will of God Holy Spirit.

Do you see that?

peace to you

Yes, I do. And I agree.

 

[canadyjd]

Yes, I do. And I agree.

Ok, let’s look at John 3:16

The “whosoever believes” is already qualified by John 1:12-13 (sons of God by the will of God) and by John 3:8 (born again by the will of God Holy Spirit)

I also point out a connection to John 1 “the light shines in the darkness and the darkness did not comprehend it” and John 3:19-21 which says the light came into the world but men lived darkness.

We then see something a little different. John is using opposites (light darkness, spirit flesh) but here he speaks of those who do evil and those who practice truth as if “practicing truth” is the opposite of doing evil.

Those that “practice truth” come to the light that their deeds (of truth) may be manifest (revealed) as having been wrought (powered) in God.

So John is saying those that come to the light and practice truth do so by the power of (or in the power of) God. It is God that enables all righteous deeds.

peace to you

 

[JonC]

Ok, let’s look at John 3:16

The “whosoever believes” is already qualified by John 1:12-13 (sons of God by the will of God) and by John 3:8 (born again by the will of God Holy Spirit)

I also point out a connection to John 1 “the light shines in the darkness and the darkness did not comprehend it” and John 3:19-21 which says the light came into the world but men lived darkness.

We then see something a little different. John is using opposites (light darkness, spirit flesh) but here he speaks of those who do evil and those who practice truth as if “practicing truth” is the opposite of doing evil.

Those that “practice truth” come to the light that their deeds (of truth) may be manifest (revealed) as having been wrought (powered) in God.

So John is saying those that come to the light and practice truth do so by the power of (or in the power of) God. It is God that enables all righteous deeds.

peace to you

I agree here to. This continues throughout our Christian lives - I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me.

 

[canadyjd]

I agree here to. This continues throughout our Christian lives - I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me.

JonC, I beginning to think we might agree on almost everything.

This has been the most productive and revealing conversation I’ve ever had with you. If we agree to only discuss scripture we there might be no end to how much we share in common beliefs.

Thank you

peace to you

 

[Silverhair]

strawman city

How is saying this
"What is needed for the atheist to believe is not to give him a John Owen book. It is not to tell him what John Owen believed.

What is needed is the gospel message revealed to the atheist by the Spirit and God has placed His ambassadors for His work."

A strawman? Are you saying that understanding Owen is more important than understanding the gospel message? What JonC said is not a strawman but it seems to be hard for you to take.

 

[kyredneck]

2 Corinthians 5:21

Scripture! Proud of you Yesh!

 

[JonC]

JonC, I beginning to think we might agree on almost everything.

This has been the most productive and revealing conversation I’ve ever had with you. If we agree to only discuss scripture we there might be no end to how much we share in common beliefs.

Thank you

peace to you

I think we would agree on a lot. Most importantly we have a common tie in that despite areas of disagreement we are united in Christ.

 

[JesusFan]

I think we would agree on a lot. Most importantly we have a common tie in that despite areas of disagreement we are united in Christ.

sad that we have to disagree though on the very heart of Pauline Justification

 

[JonC]

sad that we have to disagree though on the very heart of Pauline Justification

You are moving back into your old habits, brother. I had hoped you turned the corner when you offered Scripture, that you would actually discuss God's Word. But you didn't. You just offered a passage, I responded, then you started back with just making statements divorced from the Bible.

When you are able to deal with Scripture please send me a text message so that I will pay attention to your posts.

Until then, I am not interested in a discussion.

 

[JesusFan]

You are moving back into your old habits, brother. I had hoped you turned the corner when you offered Scripture, that you would actually discuss God's Word. But you didn't. You just offered a passage, I responded, then you started back with just making statements divorced from the Bible.

When you are able to deal with Scripture please send me a text message so that I will pay attention to your posts.

Until then, I am not interested in a discussion.

1 Thessalonians 1:10 what is that wrath still to come?

 

[JonC]

JonC, I beginning to think we might agree on almost everything.

This has been the most productive and revealing conversation I’ve ever had with you. If we agree to only discuss scripture we there might be no end to how much we share in common beliefs.

Thank you

peace to you

What JesusFan is getting at, although not via Scripture, is my disagreement with Calvinism is deeper than the "5 points". I do agree with a lot of your conclusions, but I get there in a different way (I do not believe the Penal Substitution Theory of Atonement correct).

But when it comes to Scripture you and I do have a lot in common (to include the truth that Scripture is what any theological discussion has to rely upon). Most importantly we have Christ in common.

 

[JonC]

1 Thessalonians 1:10 what is that wrath still to come?

I believe the wrath to come is the destruction of ungodly men.

2 Peter 3:7B But by His word the present heavens and earth are being reserved for fire, kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.

What do you believe is this wrath to come?

 

[JesusFan]

I believe the wrath to come is the destruction of ungodly men.

2 Peter 3:7B But by His word the present heavens and earth are being reserved for fire, kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.

What do you believe is this wrath to come?

Judgement and then condemnation into lake of Fire
Active judgement by God against sinners, as they have to pay for their own sins, as refused to have Jesus paying for them

 

[JonC]

Judgement and then condemnation into lake of Fire
Active judgement by God against sinners, as they have to pay for their own sins, as refused to have Jesus paying for them

You have suggested a couple of passages for me to address, but have you realized that you are not addressing Scripture?