Scripture More Accurately
Well-Known Member
False. In effect, you dismiss what God says. You thereby fancy yourself to be wiser than God. You are wrong and unbiblical.
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Gospel Nonconformity Is Essential!
- Thread starter Scripture More Accurately
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Scripture More Accurately
Well-Known Member
Wrong. Romans 12:2 has two commands--not just one:
Romans 12:1 Παρακαλῶ οὖν ὑμᾶς, ἀδελφοί, διὰ τῶν οἰκτιρμῶν τοῦ Θεοῦ, παραστῆσαι τὰ σώματα ὑμῶν θυσίαν ζῶσαν, ἁγίαν, εὐάρεστον τῷ Θεῷ, τὴν λογικὴν λατρείαν ὑμῶν. 2 καὶ μὴ συσχηματίζεσθε τῷ αἰῶνι τούτῳ, ἀλλὰ μεταμορφοῦσθε τῇ ἀνακαινώσει τοῦ νοὸς ὑμῶν, εἰς τὸ δοκιμάζειν ὑμᾶς τί τὸ θέλημα τοῦ Θεοῦ τὸ ἀγαθὸν καὶ εὐάρεστον καὶ τέλειον. (Rom. 12:1)
The commands are, "And be not conformed . . . but be ye transformed . . ." Both are present imperatives in Greek. You do not have any biblical basis to set aside the first command from God.
You are wrong and unbiblical in what you are saying. No one should listen at all to your teaching on this point.
It's like, don't be drunk with wine, but be filled with the Spirit. Sobriety won't fill you with the Spirit, but the indwelling of the Spirit will definitely work sobriety, and the filling is the work of God.
Also, the whole law and the prophets are summed up in this, love God. This is the first and great commandment. Focus on that and everything else falls into place, because loving God also means to love one's neighbor as himself. Everything else hangs on those two commandments. (I have that on pretty good authority.)
You don't even have to look at the world to obey the commandment. Focus on loving Christ, and loving one another, and pray as the Psalmist, recognizing that renewal is God's work, and you're there.
Also, the whole law and the prophets are summed up in this, love God. This is the first and great commandment. Focus on that and everything else falls into place, because loving God also means to love one's neighbor as himself. Everything else hangs on those two commandments. (I have that on pretty good authority.)
You don't even have to look at the world to obey the commandment. Focus on loving Christ, and loving one another, and pray as the Psalmist, recognizing that renewal is God's work, and you're there.
canadyjd
Well-Known Member
Thank you. I agree with all you said, though I’m not sure what “occult music” is it certainly sounds bad.
peace to you
canadyjd
Well-Known Member
This is very thought provoking and I’m considering it. However, Paul went further than simply putting the focus on Jesus. He usually gives much emphasis to practical application by urging Christians to avoid certain behavior.
peace to you
Of course. I was just ensuring it is understood that transformation is the essential thing, not 'nonconformity.'
It’s really more about us being “transformed” which is the Greek word metamorphoo. it’s the basis of our word metamorphosis. Just like that caterpillar in the cocoon that comes out as a beautiful butterfly, we are being transformed/changed to something beautiful to God
Not, not doing stuff, but doing stuff in the positive ie transforming our minds to the mind of Christ
firr away
Not, not doing stuff, but doing stuff in the positive ie transforming our minds to the mind of Christ
firr away
Scripture More Accurately
Well-Known Member
You are welcome. I have discussed at great length in previous threads on BB what occult music is.
Scripture More Accurately
Well-Known Member
False. Both are commands from God and both are essential. The person who becomes drunk cannot be filled with the Spirit. Similarly, the believer who is conformed to this world cannot be transformed, as God commands him to be.
Scripture More Accurately
Well-Known Member
You do not have any biblical basis or authority to assert, "It’s really more about us being 'transformed' . . ." Not being conformed to this world is commanded by God and is an essential prerequisite for true transformation.
Good luck. When you fall, look me up and I will point you to Jesus.
canadyjd
Well-Known Member
Thanks for clarifying. I did notice you said if the transformation occurs, everything else falls into place.
Agreed
peace to you
This is an interesting discussion. 
I think the first thing that we need to ascertain is who is being spoken to here: is it Christians or non-Christians? Clearly it is Christians; Paul is writing to the members of the church at Rome, whom he certainly considers to be mostly Christian (Romans 1:7-8). Non-Christians cannot save themselves by their works but need to repent and trust in Christ for salvation before they can do anything for Christ. It is believers who are to be 'zealous for good works' (Titus 2:14).
Secondly, what is this 'world' to which we are commanded not to be conformed? It is not the government of the world, which we are to obey insofar as we can (Romans 13:1-3). It might be the people of the world whom we are to love (Matthew 5:43-48), but not to imitate. I think, however, that 'world' here means the same as it means in 1 John 2:15: the world as it lies under Satan.
As God's people, we are allowed to have contact with non-Christians; to go out to dinner with them and to eat the same things they eat (1 Corinthians 10:27). But we are not to conform to their practices. @Scripture More Accurately helpfully laid out some of the things we should avoid in post #14. Our Gospel freedom is not a license to sin.
Colossians 3:1-12 is very helpful here. We have been raised with Christ, and therefore there are some things we need to rid ourselves of (vs. 5-10) and other things which we are to put on (vs. 12-17). I believe we are to do these things proactively. 'Let go and let God' is not Christian teaching. When we enter the Christian life, we enter a fight: against the world, the flesh and the devil. The world will try to lure us with its excitement and glamour; the residue of sin that remains in our members (c.f. Romans 6:12; 7:15-20; Galatians 5:16-17; Colossians 3:5).
Ephesians 4:17-24 is very helpful here. we must 'no longer walk as the rest of the Gentiles walk, in the futility of their minds.........etc. But you have not so learned Christ.' What else does that mean but non-conformity to the world?
I think the first thing that we need to ascertain is who is being spoken to here: is it Christians or non-Christians? Clearly it is Christians; Paul is writing to the members of the church at Rome, whom he certainly considers to be mostly Christian (Romans 1:7-8). Non-Christians cannot save themselves by their works but need to repent and trust in Christ for salvation before they can do anything for Christ. It is believers who are to be 'zealous for good works' (Titus 2:14).
Secondly, what is this 'world' to which we are commanded not to be conformed? It is not the government of the world, which we are to obey insofar as we can (Romans 13:1-3). It might be the people of the world whom we are to love (Matthew 5:43-48), but not to imitate. I think, however, that 'world' here means the same as it means in 1 John 2:15: the world as it lies under Satan.
As God's people, we are allowed to have contact with non-Christians; to go out to dinner with them and to eat the same things they eat (1 Corinthians 10:27). But we are not to conform to their practices. @Scripture More Accurately helpfully laid out some of the things we should avoid in post #14. Our Gospel freedom is not a license to sin.
Colossians 3:1-12 is very helpful here. We have been raised with Christ, and therefore there are some things we need to rid ourselves of (vs. 5-10) and other things which we are to put on (vs. 12-17). I believe we are to do these things proactively. 'Let go and let God' is not Christian teaching. When we enter the Christian life, we enter a fight: against the world, the flesh and the devil. The world will try to lure us with its excitement and glamour; the residue of sin that remains in our members (c.f. Romans 6:12; 7:15-20; Galatians 5:16-17; Colossians 3:5).
Ephesians 4:17-24 is very helpful here. we must 'no longer walk as the rest of the Gentiles walk, in the futility of their minds.........etc. But you have not so learned Christ.' What else does that mean but non-conformity to the world?
canadyjd
Well-Known Member
A prerequisite “true” transformation? Does that mean “true” salvation?
Many religions have rules for not conforming to the world. Do they have the “prerequisite” for true transformation?
How can you claim the “is no biblical basis” to say it’s more about being transformed when you acknowledged the passage in Romans uses both commands, nonconformity and transformation?
Clearly, the biblical basis is there, even if you disagree which has more emphasis.
peace to you
DaveXR650
Well-Known Member
You are quite right. The inner battle against the flesh is detailed in Romans 7. Romans 8 explains how the Spirit helps your walk and enables you to actually win the battle and how you must have the "mind of the spirit". Chapter 12 goes into more practical real life advice on what you should avoid and what you should do, as a physical being, living in the world. It is not legalistic to say "I will not do this. I will not listen to that, or participate in that. I won't drink this or smoke that." Doing these things are not what saves you but for a Christian anything even suggested in the scripture should be imperative to us. There is a weird, practical antinomianism going on nowadays where Christians are afraid to actively try to live a holy life out of some fear of legalism. This should not be.
That word Create comes from the Hebrew verb “to create”. It is the same word used in Genesis 1:1, when the text says “God created..”. The word is Bara(h) sometimes with an h at the end.
David uses that term because he understands the wickedness and depravity of his own heart, and that ONLY GOD can change his heart ie that he is totally at the mercy of God salvation! Bara really means it’s a total working of God. Man never Baras anything in the Bible other verbs are used in regards to man creating or making something.
this was MC79s very 1st Hebrew translation!!
Trust me, MC79 was greatly schooled by his Hebrew Professor - haha. MC79 volunteered to be the first one in the class for it because he knew that there would be at least a little mercy and grace since he is fact was #1, and it never happened again that MC79 was unprepared. He thought he had me a couple of times, but it worked out ok.
He schooled everybody and you had better be ready because it was not going to stop at translating, he expected you to know where else in the OT it was used, how it was used and a practical application.
he was a tail gunner on a B-17 in WWII
he was tough
Scripture More Accurately
Well-Known Member
Paul issued the two commands in Romans 12:2 to Christians. This entire discussion, therefore, concerns only believers.
It is irrelevant what other religions do or do not have.
I specifically stated that you do not have any basis for saying that the emphasis is on the one command and not the other.