Would this happen at the Rapture?

[Salty]

NOTE: - this Thread is ONLY for those who have a belief in the Rapture - whether it is pre, mid, post.
If you do not accept the doctrine of the rapture - your comments are NOT welcomed.
Please respect this thread.

So here is the question:

If at the moment of the Rapture - will the soon-to-be-born baby be raptured?
Would it make a difference if the baby has only been conceived the day before
or the regular due date would be within a week?

Would it make a difference if mom saved or not?

Let the discussion begin!

 

[Darrell C]

NOTE: - this Thread is ONLY for those who have a belief in the Rapture - whether it is pre, mid, post.
If you do not accept the doctrine of the rapture - your comments are NOT welcomed.
Please respect this thread.

So here is the question:

If at the moment of the Rapture - will the soon-to-be-born baby be raptured?
Would it make a difference if the baby has only been conceived the day before
or the regular due date would be within a week?

Would it make a difference if mom saved or not?

Let the discussion begin!

I take the position—yes.

(snip) While it is true the unborn babe has not grown up to hear the Gospel of Christ, keep in mind that the Old Testament Saints, though having heard the veiled Gospel of Christ—never understood it as we do, having been enlightened to this mystery by the Comforter.

That being said, just as Old Testament Saints were shown mercy despite never having professed faith in Christ and His Death during their lifetimes, even so do I think God will show mercy to those babes who did not either. Not even the disciples of Christ were believing on Him in regards to the Gospel of Jesus Christ:

John 16:28-32 KJV

28 I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father.

29 His disciples said unto him, Lo, now speakest thou plainly, and speakest no proverb.

30 Now are we sure that thou knowest all things, and needest not that any man should ask thee: by this we believe that thou camest forth from God.

31 Jesus answered them, Do ye now believe?

32 Behold, the hour cometh, yea, is now come, that ye shall be scattered, every man to his own, and shall leave me alone: and yet I am not alone, because the Father is with me.


God bless.

 

[Marooncat79]

Yes. God is able to imputed faith into the unborn. Maybe it’s impart?

anyways, God is able to give them the faith required to believe the Gospel!!

Remember, “w/o faith, it is impossible to please God”

think about that.

excellent question

 

[Salty]

excellent question

Somehow that question came up in Sunday School yesterday!

 

[JD731]

This is a good question and I confess that I do not know, but I do have some thoughts on it.

First, it is the rapture of the "church," which is a translation and glorification of the collective "body of Christ." We know and teach that the only way to become a member of that body is through the new birth. This new birth requires three things of a man. 1) It requires he have intellect. reason, and will. Through intellect he can learn based on observation and experience of things around him. By reason he develops a consciousness of the difference between right and wrong. Through his will be orders his own actions. Taking this into consideration we can understand that if the innocents are delivered from the wrath to come by being included in the rapture it will not be because they are members of the church of Jesus Christ. It will be because they are innocent. God's wrath is against sinners.

2. Innocents are not sinners. It is not a sin to be born of a woman. If it were then Jesus would have been a sinner. It is not a sin to be born into the family of Adam, although all who are born into the family of Adam will sin when all three of the conditions of the innocent becomes mature in him. James 1 gives us the process when he says the following.
"A man is tempted (to sin) when he is drawn away of his own lust and enticed (to do wrong). Then when lust is conceived it bringeth forth sin, and when sin is finished it bringeth forth death."

3) Sin has biblical definitions that cannot include innocents. Sin is said to be "the transgression of the law." We know also that a person is not guilty of breaking a law that is not given to him. When Paul explained in Rom 5 that those who lived between Adam and Moses did not sin after the similitude of Adam's transgression, it meant that they were not given the law not to eat of the forbidden tree. Therefore they could not be guilty of breaking that law. Again, the scriptures says that "whatsoever is not of faith is sin." Men cannot have faith unless they have intellect and reason and will. Intellect and reason awakens the conscience. Thirdly, The word of God says, "if a man knoweth to do good and doeth it not, to him it is sin." This is rather self explanatory.

4) fourthly, sin is finished when it becomes an action of the body. It was not a sin for Eve to be tempted in the garden but it was a sin for her to eat the forbidden fruit. The church will not be judged for what she thought but what she did in the body because we are told, "we shall all give account for the deeds done in the body, whether they be good or bad." The unsaved at their great white throne judgement have to deal with language like this, "And the dead were judged out of the books, according to their deeds."

Innocents cannot be guilty of sin for the obvious reasons stated above. Therefore I suppose that they will be delivered from the wrath to come because they are innocent and the judgement on this earth is for sinners. I wish I knew more.

 

[37818]

Innocents are not sinners.

Wow. That is a problematic point of view. They did not need Christ to die?

 

[Marooncat79]

That’s a very slippery slope that I am not willing to go down

 

[canadyjd]

NOTE: - this Thread is ONLY for those who have a belief in the Rapture - whether it is pre, mid, post.
If you do not accept the doctrine of the rapture - your comments are NOT welcomed.
Please respect this thread.

So here is the question:

If at the moment of the Rapture - will the soon-to-be-born baby be raptured?
Would it make a difference if the baby has only been conceived the day before
or the regular due date would be within a week?

Would it make a difference if mom saved or not?

Let the discussion begin!

I believe they will be. Their “body”, even if just conceived, will be transformed.

Concerning their ability to have faith, I like Martin Luther’s position that even if a child cannot exercise faith in a way we can understand, they may be able in a way God can understand. Salvation is a supernatural work of God Holy Spirit and communication is between the person and God.

peace to you

 

[37818]

NOTE: - this Thread is ONLY for those who have a belief in the Rapture - whether it is pre, mid, post.
If you do not accept the doctrine of the rapture - your comments are NOT welcomed.
Please respect this thread.

So here is the question:

If at the moment of the Rapture - will the soon-to-be-born baby be raptured?
Would it make a difference if the baby has only been conceived the day before
or the regular due date would be within a week?

Would it make a difference if mom saved or not?

Let the discussion begin!

One's answers indeed depends on known Biblical truths. For example those who will perish in the Judgment will not have their names in the book of life, Revelation 20:15. Then there is what Jesus said of little children, Mark 10:14, ". . . But when Jesus saw it, he was much displeased, and said unto them, Suffer the little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God. . . .". And there is more. Mark 10:15 with John 3:3-4. And more.

 

[canadyjd]

One's answers indeed depends on known Biblical truths. For example those who will perish in the Judgment will not have their names in the book of life, Revelation 20:15. Then there is what Jesus said of little children, Mark 10:14, ". . . But when Jesus saw it, he was much displeased, and said unto them, Suffer the little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God. . . .". And there is more. Mark 10:15 with John 3:3-4. And more.

I have heard that more than 70% of fertilized eggs never implant in the womb. Also consider that historically, large % of children die in infancy.

Soooo….. if all babies go to heaven (I think they do based on David’s statement after the death of his sin with Bathsheba), and life begins at conception…, when Jesus said of children “…such is the kingdom of God”, He may very well have been speaking literally.

It could be the overwhelming majority of people in heaven are children never born or that died in infancy.

Something to ponder

peace to you

 

[JD731]

Wow. That is a problematic point of view. They did not need Christ to die?

Innocent children cannot commit sin because sin is a willing action based on knowledge and consciousness of a law.Therefore they are not a transgressor of the law. Have you ever heard of a little child being tried in a court of law? The reason animals were a fit type of the sacrifice of Christ is because they were innocent. Animals do not act out of reason and intellect, therefore animals cannot be charged with sin because they cannot sin as the bible defines sin. Neither can an innocent child. Adam himself could not have sinned except God had given him a law and the ability to deliberately act outside of the will of God.

The scripture says, "Adam was not deceived."

 

[Marooncat79]

Innocent children cannot commit sin because sin is a willing action based on knowledge and consciousness of a law.Therefore they are not a transgressor of the law. Have you ever heard of a little child being tried in a court of law? The reason animals were a fit type of the sacrifice of Christ is because they were innocent. Animals do not act out of reason and intellect, therefore animals cannot be charged with sin because they cannot sin as the bible defines sin. Neither can an innocent child. Adam himself could not have sinned except God had given him a law and the ability to deliberately act outside of the will of God.

The scripture says, "Adam was not deceived."

David said that he was born in sin and in sin was he conceived.

 

[JD731]

David said that he was born in sin and in sin was he conceived.

David said in the same psalm these words;

Ps 51:7 Purge me with hyssop, and I shall be clean: wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow.
8 Make me to hear joy and gladness; that the bones which thou hast broken may rejoice.
9 Hide thy face from my sins, and blot out all mine iniquities.

Question; when did David suffer broken bones? The point is, there is far more going on in this psalm than just the sin of David with Bathsheba. This is not an admission that David thinks he was a sinner sometimes between his conception and his birth.

Again, I just offered my own thoughts on the children at the rapture of the church. I could be wrong.

 

[37818]

Innocent children cannot commit sin because sin is a willing action based on knowledge and consciousness of a law.

You believe what is not true. Psalms 58:3, ". . . The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies. . . ."

 

[Marooncat79]

A 2 yr old who stomps their foot and tells their parent no is a sinner

 

[Darrell C]

David said that he was born in sin and in sin was he conceived.

He also said:

2 Samuel 12:21-23 King James Version


21 Then said his servants unto him, What thing is this that thou hast done? thou didst fast and weep for the child, while it was alive; but when the child was dead, thou didst rise and eat bread.

22 And he said, While the child was yet alive, I fasted and wept: for I said, Who can tell whether God will be gracious to me, that the child may live?

23 But now he is dead, wherefore should I fast? can I bring him back again? I shall go to him, but he shall not return to me.


Christ taught a division in Hades between the just and the unjust. David was confident that when he died he would be reunited with the child.

That David was born in sin is a reference to the fact that he was born into sinful conditions, as we all are, not that he had inherited a disease called sin.

God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

You believe what is not true. Psalms 58:3, ". . . The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies. . . ."

The estrangement that causes sin is separation from God.

You are leaving out an important part of the context:

Psalm 58 KJV

1 Do ye indeed speak righteousness, O congregation? do ye judge uprightly, O ye sons of men?

2 Yea, in heart ye work wickedness; ye weigh the violence of your hands in the earth.

3 The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.

All men are among "the wicked," for there is none righteous.

No, not one.

To be righteous (just) in an eternal context took the death, burial, and Resurrection of Jesus Christ. Except a man eat of His flesh and Drink of His blood ...

... he has no life.

God sent His Son that men might have life, and until Christ secured Eternal Redemption for men through His death no man was righteous in an eternal context:


Romans 3:23-26 KJV

23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.


God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

Again, I just offered my own thoughts on the children at the rapture of the church. I could be wrong.

It was an excellent response, in my view.

The idea of the "innocence" of babes and children is repulsive to those who take the position that sin is a disease inherited from their parents, and among some it is absolute blasphemy. But I agree with you, because many that take that view also feel one must have heard the Gospel and placed faith in Christ within their lifetime in order to go to Heaven. One problem with that position is that we have an entire Old Testament filled with just men and women who, because the Gospel of Christ had not been revealed to them, lived and died without ever receiving an understanding of Who the prophecies Messiah was and what He would do.

And it is on this basis that I look to the grace of God in regards to those who die while yet in the womb, and even at young ages. God consistently judges men throughout Scripture according to the Revelation they have received, and their response to that revelation. That is why the Writer of Hebrews makes a distinction between the judgments of those who had received the Law, and those who had received the Gospel:

Hebrew 10:28-29 KJV

28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:

29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

I do not consider children "innocent" because they have not sinned, but simply because they are conceived, like David, under the conditions of sin. Their problem is not that they have "inherited sin," but that they are separated from God. So too were the Old Testament Saints, and they died waiting to be made complete in regards to remission of sins:

Hebrews 11:13 KJV

13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.


Hebrews 11:30-40 KJV

39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:

40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.


So if these men and women can grow up, sin (grievously in some cases), and die before they were made complete (perfect) in regards to remission of sins (Hebrews 10:1-4; Hebrews 10:10-14), and still receive the grace and mercy of God, why wouldn't we think God would bestow grace unto those who died in the womb having never had the chance to either sin or profess faith?


God bless.

 

[Marooncat79]

He also said:

2 Samuel 12:21-23 King James Version


21 Then said his servants unto him, What thing is this that thou hast done? thou didst fast and weep for the child, while it was alive; but when the child was dead, thou didst rise and eat bread.

22 And he said, While the child was yet alive, I fasted and wept: for I said, Who can tell whether God will be gracious to me, that the child may live?

23 But now he is dead, wherefore should I fast? can I bring him back again? I shall go to him, but he shall not return to me.


Christ taught a division in Hades between the just and the unjust. David was confident that when he died he would be reunited with the child.

That David was born in sin is a reference to the fact that he was born into sinful conditions, as we all are, not that he had inherited a disease called sin.

God bless.

Great disagreement here. It’s called original sin

 

[Darrell C]

Great disagreement here. It’s called original sin

This is true. Now, when someone can show me a Biblical Basis for this doctrine it might have some value. Me, personally, cannot see this doctrine negating what we do actually see in Scripture.

Did David have expectation of seeing his child again? We know there is a division of the just and unjust alike in the Old Testament, so we have to say either the David viewed the child's condition as that of just, or his own as unjust.

While David was not privy to the Gospel, he was a prophet of God. I think he would have had a good idea of what would happen to the child. It is true he could have just been hopeful, lol, but I think he had peace from God on the subject, despite his grievous sin.

God bless.