Trichotomy or Dichotomy

[Eternally Grateful]

Genesis 41:8
Now in the morning his spirit was troubled, so he sent messengers and called for all the soothsayer priests of Egypt, and all its wise men. And Pharaoh told them his dreams, but there was no one who could interpret them for Pharaoh.​

According to the "as I see it" view above, this verse should read "his soul was troubled." How could a dead, lifeless spirit be troubled?

Maybe you could read what I posted.

The spirit is SEPERATED from God (spiritually dead)

Lifeless spirit was not in my words.

 

[Van]

Maybe you could read what I posted.
The spirit is SEPERATED from God (spiritually dead)
Lifeless spirit was not in my words.

Here is what you posted:

soul vs spirit as I see it..
the soul is the inner man. And all we are
the spirit is the part of us that relates to God.
When the scripture says we are dead, it is not talking of the body or the soul. the soul lives. But the spirit (the part of us that interacts with God and his spirit) is dead.

I agree that our human spirit/soul is separated from God because of our unholiness. I did not see, and still do not see where you said the spirit was able to seek God in its separated state. Your phrasing suggested to me that our dead spirit could not interact with God.

How could our dead spirit be troubled as our soul can be troubled?
How could our dead spirit be willing to keep watching and praying not to come to temptation?
How could our dead spirit know our thoughts?

 

[JonC]

Maybe you could read what I posted.

The spirit is SEPERATED from God (spiritually dead)

Lifeless spirit was not in my words.

I agree, but how exactly is the spirit separated from God (what does it mean to be separated from God)?

I ask because God remained active in the lives of Adam, Eve, Cain, Able, Noah, etc. He was there, and there was a type of relationship.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Here is what you posted:

In the post previous to this, I posted the following

I see death as separation

Physical death is separation of the soul from the body

Spiritual death is separation of the spirit from God.

I agree that our human spirit/soul is separated from God because of our unholiness. I did not see, and still do not see where you said the spirit was able to seek God in its separated state. Your phrasing suggested to me that our dead spirit could not interact with God.

Who said anything about seeking God? where do people come up with these things. I never said we would seek God..

How could our dead spirit be troubled as our soul can be troubled?
How could our dead spirit be willing to keep watching and praying not to come to temptation?
How could our dead spirit know our thoughts?

Your dead spirit is not dead as in anialated.

It is dead as in seperated from God. there is a barrier between God and man, It is seen in the law. When the tabernacle (presence of God) was put in the middle of the assembly. And NO one could approach God. If they did they would die physically.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

I agree, but how exactly is the spirit separated from God (what does it mean to be separated from God)?

I ask because God remained active in the lives of Adam, Eve, Cain, Able, Noah, etc. He was there, and there was a type of relationship.

why could not one but the high priest, and only him AFTER multiple sacrifices. Not enter the holy of Holys (presence of God) unless they would die?

The penalty of sin is death. I hope you do not think it is physical death. We are dead. I was dead in tresspasses and sin, and have been made alive, what was made alive? My spirit?

I am confused as to why spiritual death seems to be an unknown or confused issue in a baptist thread..

 

[JonC]

why could not one but the high priest, and only him AFTER multiple sacrifices. Not enter the holy of Holys (presence of God) unless they would die?

The penalty of sin is death. I hope you do not think it is physical death. We are dead. I was dead in tresspasses and sin, and have been made alive, what was made alive? My spirit?

I am confused as to why spiritual death seems to be an unknown or confused issue in a baptist thread..

There is a lot to cover here.

My actual question is what this separation means.

I believe it means several things.

Man is unrighteous. We, by nature, fall short of God's glory.

There is a break in the fellowship between God and man (brought on by the Fall).

So while I agree with you, and I use the same terms as you, and I agree regarding the results of this separation (your illustration of the veil is perfect), I am not exactly sure how this separation is defined.l and was asking your view.

But we often seem content to say things like "spiritual death means we are separated from God". While true, that is really not saying much.

That said, if that is the best we can do then that is the best we can do.

My personal view of this spiritual separation goes to human nature (it is at odds with God). That is dead spiritually.

But I connect spirit with nature.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

There is a lot to cover here.

My actual question is what this separation means.

I believe it means several things.

Man is unrighteous. We, by nature, fall short of God's glory.

There is a break in the fellowship between God and man (brought on by the Fall).

So while I agree with you, and I use the same terms as you, and I agree regarding the results of this separation (your illustration of the veil is perfect), I am not exactly sure how this separation is defined.l and was asking your view.

But we often seem content to say things like "spiritual death means we are separated from God". While true, that is really not saying much.

That said, if that is the best we can do then that is the best we can do.

My personal view of this spiritual separation goes to human nature (it is at odds with God). That is dead spiritually.

But I connect spirit with nature.

I see what your saying.

Spiritual death is a deep issue, I do not think we have even begun to explain it.

 

[Van]

SNIP
Who said anything about seeking God? where do people come up with these things. I never said we would seek God..
Your dead spirit is not dead as in annihilated.
It is dead as in separated from God. there is a barrier between God and man, It is seen in the law. When the tabernacle (presence of God) was put in the middle of the assembly. And NO one could approach God. If they did they would die physically.

LOL, once again nothing has been clarified, except that EG did indeed indicate being dead included being separated. But as to the affect of the separation, crickets.

My post:
I agree that our human spirit/soul is separated from God because of our unholiness. I did not see, and still do not see where you said the spirit was able to seek God in its separated state. Your phrasing suggested to me that our dead spirit could not interact with God. [Edit: Post 30 demonstrates I was correct]

How could our dead spirit be troubled as our soul can be troubled?
How could our dead spirit be willing to keep watching and praying not to come to temptation?
How could our dead spirit know our thoughts?​

Can a dead (meaning separated from God) human spirit seek God as in praying to God to not come to temptation? (Matthew 26:41) Will EG answer this question?

Basically our human spirit has attributes and attitudes, thus is also contains our soul. Thus we are two parts, our human spirit/soul and our flesh.

 

[JesusFan]

There are only two (that I know of) views regarding the composition of man. God created man with a body, soul, and spirit or God created man with a body and a soul/spirit (soul and spirit, in the sense of natural man, being the same).

I lean towards the former - that God created Adam with a human body, a human soul, and a human spirit.

But I do not know that I can articulate the differences between soul and spirit in this sense.

What are your thoughts?

Spirit of us is the spiritual aspect that was created in Adam to relate with and commune with God, but that aspect died when he fell, and so only the saved would have that part still active and functioning!

 

[Eternally Grateful]

LOL, once again nothing has been clarified, except that EG did indeed indicate being dead included being separated. But as to the affect of the separation, crickets.

My post:
I agree that our human spirit/soul is separated from God because of our unholiness. I did not see, and still do not see where you said the spirit was able to seek God in its separated state. Your phrasing suggested to me that our dead spirit could not interact with God.

How could our dead spirit be troubled as our soul can be troubled?
How could our dead spirit be willing to keep watching and praying not to come to temptation?
How could our dead spirit know our thoughts?​

Can a dead (meaning separated from God) human spirit seek God as in praying to God to not come to temptation? (Matthew 26:41) Will EG answer this question?

Basically our human spirit has attributes and attitudes, thus is also contains our soul. Thus we are two parts, our human spirit/soul and our flesh.

If EG has not answered this question so many times in so many posts since he has been here. EG would not be so frustrated that he continues to get asked this question.

you will have to forgive me, Frustration in getting the same question asked over and over is over the top.

WE DO NOT SEEK GOD. I DID NOT SEEK GOD. I only seeked for answers to my questions. God is the one who drew me to himself by answering my questions

I have said this more times than I can imagine to count. So why people keep asking me if we can seek God. Well that is beyond my imagination.

 

[Van]

If EG has not answered this question so many times in so many posts since he has been here. EG would not be so frustrated that he continues to get asked this question.

you will have to forgive me, Frustration in getting the same question asked over and over is over the top.

WE DO NOT SEEK GOD. I DID NOT SEEK GOD. I only seeked for answers to my questions. God is the one who drew me to himself by answering my questions

I have said this more times than I can imagine to count. So why people keep asking me if we can seek God. Well that is beyond my imagination.

Are you unable to explain how the human spirit sought God by praying as in Matthew 26:41?

Basically our human spirit has attributes and attitudes, thus is also contains our soul. Thus we are two parts, our human spirit/soul and our flesh.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Are you unable to explain how the human spirit sought God by praying as in Matthew 26:41?

Basically our human spirit has attributes and attitudes, thus is also contains our soul. Thus we are two parts, our human spirit/soul and our flesh.

40 Then He came to the disciples and found them sleeping, and said to Peter, “What! Could you not watch with Me one hour? 41 Watch and pray, lest you enter into temptation. The spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak.”

The ones Jesus spoke to in Matt 26 are spiritually alive.. So not sure of your question.

 

[Van]

40 Then He came to the disciples and found them sleeping, and said to Peter, “What! Could you not watch with Me one hour? 41 Watch and pray, lest you enter into temptation. The spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak.”

The ones Jesus spoke to in Matt 26 are spiritually alive.. So not sure of your question.

Fiction, no one was made alive before Christ died. Where are individuals made alive? "Together with Christ." Ephesians 2:5

Romans 6:5
For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection,
​

Note we are "United with" Christ after His death. Where do we undergo the washing of regeneration? In Christ, not before.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Fiction, no one was made alive before Christ died. Where are individuals made alive? "Together with Christ." Ephesians 2:5

Romans 6:5
For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection,
​

Note we are "United with" Christ after His death. Where do we undergo the washing of regeneration? In Christ, not before.

Ah, So when Abraham believed God and it was accredited to him as righteousness. He was spiritually dead still?

Sorry bro, I am not buying it.

 

[Van]

Ah, So when Abraham believed God and it was accredited to him as righteousness. He was spiritually dead still?

Sorry bro, I am not buying it.

You seem not buy loads of scripture.
1) No one was "made alive," "quicken," "regenerated," "born anew," "baptized into Christ," or "transferred in the kingdom of Christ" before Christ died. This is fundamental Christianity that your doctrine denies. Your doctrine removes the barrier before Christ paid the ransom. Absurd nonsense!!

2) The fact is that the lost, having their human spirit separated by unholiness from God (spiritually dead), still sometimes seek God as in Matthew 26:41. The OT has loads of verses where the lost sought God.

 

[SavedByGrace]

1 Thessalonians 5:23

Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you completely. And may your spirit, soul, and body be kept sound and blameless for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ

 

[Eternally Grateful]

You seem not buy loads of scripture.
1) No one was "made alive," "quicken," "regenerated," "born anew," "baptized into Christ," or "transferred in the kingdom of Christ" before Christ died. This is fundamental Christianity that your doctrine denies. Your doctrine removes the barrier before Christ paid the ransom. Absurd nonsense!!

2) The fact is that the lost, having their human spirit separated by unholiness from God (spiritually dead), still sometimes seek God as in Matthew 26:41. The OT has loads of verses where the lost sought God.

Lol

I just go with reality. The barrier was removed from Abraham, And Noah, and others

Tats what it means wen it says God credited to Abraham account righteousness. it was not his righteousness, It was God lookin forward to Christs righteousness. You limit God to time. God is outside of time.

if not. Abraham could not be credited with righteousness, and They would have died dead outside christ. That was not the case.

But hey. To each his own..

 

[Van]

Lol

I just go with reality. The barrier was removed from Abraham, And Noah, and others

Tats what it means wen it says God credited to Abraham account righteousness. it was not his righteousness, It was God lookin forward to Christs righteousness. You limit God to time. God is outside of time.

if not. Abraham could not be credited with righteousness, and They would have died dead outside christ. That was not the case.

But hey. To each his own..

Still no answer to Matthew 26:41!! You do not go with reality, but with scripture nullification. If the verse does not fit, deny it.

Your barrier to seeking God is a fiction of your doctrine. Your view that the human sole is not part of our human spirit conflicts with scripture after scripture.

What it means when Romans 4:4-5 says God credited his faith as righteousness, is that unregenerate Abraham had put his faith in God and His promises, and God knowing Abraham's heart credited that faith as righteousness.

You seem not buy loads of scripture.
1) No one was "made alive," "quicken," "regenerated," "born anew," "baptized into Christ," or "transferred in the kingdom of Christ" before Christ died. This is fundamental Christianity that your doctrine denies. Your doctrine removes the barrier before Christ paid the ransom. Absurd nonsense!!

2) The fact is that the lost, having their human spirit separated by unholiness from God (spiritually dead), still sometimes seek God as in Matthew 26:41. The OT has loads of verses where the lost sought God.

Our soul is part of our human spirit, based on both being described in scripture in the same way.

 

[Van]

2 Kings 4:27
But she came to the man of God at the hill and took hold of his feet. And Gehazi came up to push her away, but the man of God said, “Leave her alone, for her soul is troubled within her; and the LORD has concealed it from me and has not informed me.”

Compare with Genesis 41:8 where the spirit is troubled. The same response indicates the soul and spirit are united.

 

[percho]

And the LORD God formed man of (A) the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils (B) the breath of life; and man became (C) a living soul.

IMHO
A + B = C

The formed dust of the ground at that moment, without, life spirit <rûaḥ, in the breath < nᵊšāmâ of God was inert soul, non living.

God breathed spirit life into it and it became soul living.

At death the following takes place.

Ecc 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

The soul, person of the former living person without life, dead, Ecc 12:7 to Hades.