In the King James Bible, according to many pastors, the word soveriegn appears nowhere. My question is: knowing that God does not predetermine the salvation of any person, if we pray for the salvation of a particular person, will God answer our prayer? If so, does this mean that God is soveriegn, in compatibility with our free will?
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Is God Soveriegn?
- Thread starter Guido
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KenH
Well-Known Member
"God's will determines all the choices and circumstances of his creatures, so that nothing is up to man's "free will." In fact, because God is completely sovereign, man has no free will:
All the days ordained for me were written in your book before one of them came to be. (Psalm 139:16)
The LORD works out everything for his own ends – even the wicked for a day of disaster. (Proverbs 16:4)
In his heart a man plans his course, but the LORD determines his steps. (Proverbs 16:9)
A man's steps are directed by the LORD. How then can anyone understand his own way? (Proverbs 20:24)
The king's heart is in the hand of the LORD; he directs it like a watercourse wherever he pleases. (Proverbs 21:1)
All the peoples of the earth are regarded as nothing. He does as he pleases with the powers of heaven and the peoples of the earth. No one can hold back his hand or say to him: "What have you done?" (Daniel 4:35)
Now listen, you who say, "Today or tomorrow we will go to this or that city, spend a year there, carry on business and make money." Why, you do not even know what will happen tomorrow. What is your life? You are a mist that appears for a little while and then vanishes. Instead, you ought to say, "If it is the Lord's will, we will live and do this or that." (James 4:13-15)
All things are decided and caused by God – nothing is free from his control, and he has not chosen to forego his control on anything. The doctrine is repulsive to those who abhor the rule and honor of God, and so they oppose it. But the doctrine is a source of comfort and celebration to those who love him. Why would we want it any other way, than for God to rule over all things? And what better life can we wish for, than to be ruled by God?"
- Vincent Cheung, Systematic Theology
Guido, your entire paragraph is a strawman.
First, God is over all things, which makes God Sovereign. Many English translations us the word Sovereign. Go to Ezekiel and see how many times it is translated in regard to God.
Your first strawman is to hem yourself in to the KJV as the only translation.
Second, you create a strawman when you assert, for certain, that God doesn't predestine salvation. Of course that assertion begs us all to ignore the Bible passages that openly tell us God predestines, elects and chooses people to be saved. So...you don't know. In fact, you are ignorant of God's choice of you when you make this false assertion.
Third, we go boldly to the throne of grace and make our requests. Then we wait upon the Sovereign King to determine what He so wills.
So your entire postulation is based upon a false idea, upon which you have asked us to respond.
Well, if I must persevere in good works till the end, how do I know I won't fall away? I have no assurance from such a doctrine. But to accept what your both saying, I must subscribe to this doctrine. I barely even have good works. Hebrews, according to Calvinism, constantly exhorts the readers to persevere in obedience to God, or be damned to Hell without hope in this life, from what I understand.
O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!
For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counseller?
Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again?
For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen.
Romans 11:33–36 (AV 1873)
For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counseller?
Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again?
For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen.
Romans 11:33–36 (AV 1873)
Sovereignty is not a free ticket to fulfill our prayer wishes, it's an attribute of God.
The very character of God demands that he is sovereign.
Anything less than full sovereignty would make him a small god, AND THERE IS NONE GREATER.
Sovereignty means:
possessing supreme or ultimate power,
absolute,
unlimited,
unrestricted,
unrestrained,
unbounded,
infinite,
absolute,
unlimited,
unrestricted,
unrestrained,
unbounded,
infinite,
It is this very God who called you to salvation (because he cares for you!)
He simply asks you to believe in him; to have faith that he will do his will in your life.
That's not a hard task when you believe in a sovereign God.
The very fact that you desire others to come to salvation shows that you align with his will (for he desires other to come to trust him as well).
Do not overly concern yourself in trying to figure out "free will" and how it fits into his plans.
It is a fruitless endeavor. Try as we might we will never figure God out.
Not only is he unbounded by time. He is incomprehensible (beyond our comprehension).
He knows the beginning and the end-- and we don't.
Trust that God knows your desire and is in control. Then let him do his will.
Like the psalmist David, trust him through your fears and doubts. Trust him in the dark times.
Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death,
I will fear no evil: for thou art with me;
Thy rod and thy staff they comfort me.
Thou preparest a table before me in the presence of mine enemies:
Thou anointest my head with oil; my cup runneth over.
Psalm 23:4–5 (AV 1873)
I will fear no evil: for thou art with me;
Thy rod and thy staff they comfort me.
Thou preparest a table before me in the presence of mine enemies:
Thou anointest my head with oil; my cup runneth over.
Psalm 23:4–5 (AV 1873)
Probably the best example though is found in the book of Daniel
Now if ye be ready that at what time ye hear the sound of the cornet, flute, harp, sackbut, psaltery, and dulcimer, and all kinds of musick, ye fall down and worship the image which I have made; well: but if ye worship not, ye shall be cast the same hour into the midst of a burning fiery furnace; and who is that God that shall deliver you out of my hands?
Shadrach, Meshach, and Abed-nego, answered and said to the king, O Nebuchadnezzar, we are not careful to answer thee in this matter.
If it be so, our God whom we serve is able to deliver us from the burning fiery furnace, and he will deliver us out of thine hand, O king.
But if not, be it known unto thee, O king, that we will not serve thy gods, nor worship the golden image which thou hast set up.
Daniel 3:15–18 (AV 1873)
Shadrach, Meshach, and Abed-nego, answered and said to the king, O Nebuchadnezzar, we are not careful to answer thee in this matter.
If it be so, our God whom we serve is able to deliver us from the burning fiery furnace, and he will deliver us out of thine hand, O king.
But if not, be it known unto thee, O king, that we will not serve thy gods, nor worship the golden image which thou hast set up.
Daniel 3:15–18 (AV 1873)
They trusted God whether they lived or died, they knew their God was sovereign over all.
Rob
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Reformed1689
Well-Known Member
Your question is wrong on its face. We do know that God predetermines the salvation of people.
SavedByGrace
Well-Known Member
Psalm 135:5-6
For I know that the Lord is great, And our Lord is above all gods. Whatever the Lord pleases He does, In heaven and in earth, In the seas and in all deep places"
Daniel 4: 34-35
" And at the end of the time I, Nebuchadnezzar, lifted my eyes to heaven, and my understanding returned to me; and I blessed the Most High and praised and honored Him who lives forever: For His dominion is an everlasting dominion, And His kingdom is from generation to generation. All the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing; He does according to His will in the army of heaven And among the inhabitants of the earth. No one can restrain His hand Or say to Him, “What have You done?”
For I know that the Lord is great, And our Lord is above all gods. Whatever the Lord pleases He does, In heaven and in earth, In the seas and in all deep places"
Daniel 4: 34-35
" And at the end of the time I, Nebuchadnezzar, lifted my eyes to heaven, and my understanding returned to me; and I blessed the Most High and praised and honored Him who lives forever: For His dominion is an everlasting dominion, And His kingdom is from generation to generation. All the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing; He does according to His will in the army of heaven And among the inhabitants of the earth. No one can restrain His hand Or say to Him, “What have You done?”
Alan Gross
Well-Known Member
Alan Gross
Well-Known Member
KenH shared this on another thread and it is GREAT:
TODAY'S "GOSPEL" IS ANOTHER GOSPEL AND DOES NOT SAVE THE SOUL, but leaves a lost soul Dead in Trespasses and Sins. Thus, they do not understand or comprehend "The Gospel of Christ" and everything associated with The Spirit of God, because they have not been Born Again and do not have The Divine Nature implanted within their soul.
Assurance concerning your Eternal Security is found in Scripture. But, in order to have that assurance you must study that you understand what Scripture has to say about it. Eternal Security is held by those who simply have faith in Christ. Many believers are trusting Christ completely and do not have a great understanding of all of the passages that teach this. To me, it is amazing that any born again believer can doubt Eternal Security, because if you are not trusting in Christ completely—you should really take stock in what you are trusting in.
Granted that there are false teachers, the L.O.S.T. (loss of salvation teachers) that can bring convincing arguments and wrest Scripture to their vile imaginings. Those who have not gained the discernment all believers can have through study of God's Word can fall prey to them. So the answer is, if you want to have assurance, if you want to understand Eternal Security, then you simply need to understand the passages in Scripture that teach it.
And you need to understand Scripture so that you can give an answer to those teaching false doctrines they suppose support loss of salvation.
The question, "Is God Sovereign" seems a little silly to me, because—of course He is, lol. But it is a valid question, because many have been led astray by the L.O.S.T. While being in error in doctrine doesn't mean one is lost or unsaved, it should be a priority of every believer to see that their brothers and sisters aren't led astray. Which means, yep, you guessed it—we need to study too! lol
So tell me, Guido, why exactly would you have doubt that the God Who said He has saved you, and given you Eternal Life—might change His mind?
God bless.
Alan Gross
Well-Known Member
Eternal Justification and Acceptation in Christby Don Fortner
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved. - Ephesians 1:3-6
The Scriptures declare that God’s elect were “accepted in the Beloved” and “blessed with all spiritual blessings” in him “before the foundation of the world.” Were we accepted and blessed in and with Christ from eternity as righteous or as unrighteous? The obvious answer is the only answer: — as righteous. In 1647 Samuel Richardson declared the same sweet revelation of the gospel…
“Some place justification to be only in the conscience. But we place it only in Christ where it is, and to whom it belongs. Justification consists in taking away of sin. None but Christ can do that. Justification and acceptation are one. For without justification there is no acceptation. And seeing we are accepted in Christ, we are justified in him. If our justification be a spiritual blessing, (as it is) then it is in Christ where all spiritual blessings are, "Blessed be God, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in Christ," Eph. 1:3. Where our redemption and righteousness are, there is our justification. Righteousness and justification are one. This we have not in our selves but in Christ, "who is made unto us of God, wisdom and righteousness," 1 Cor. 1:30. "In whom we have redemption," Col. 1:14. Our justification is a part of our completeness. Therefore, where we are complete there we are justified. But we are not complete in our selves, but in Him, Col. 2:10.”
Blessed, sweet revelation of grace. — Our Lord Jesus Christ is “THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS” eternally! — “Accepted in the Beloved!” What a sweet, soul-cheering declaration of grace. Though I am in and of myself nothing but sin, I am accepted in Christ. — Accepted in Christ before the world was made! — Accepted in Christ, though fallen in Adam! — Accepted in Christ before ever I heard his voice! — Accepted in Christ when he called me by his grace! — Accepted in Christ though often in darkness because of my own sin and unbelief! — Accepted in Christ immutably and forever!
I’m accepted! I’m accepted! I’m accepted in God’s Son!
Justified, pardoned, accepted — Holy as the Holy One!
Blest of God with every blessing, long before the world began!
Loved of God and one with Jesus, who can charge my soul with sin?
Heir of God, joint-heir with Jesus, heaven’s gates I’ll enter in!
Face to face, I’ll see my Savior, He Who put away my sin!
Lamb of God, eternal Savior, I will ever praise Your name!
Worthy, worthy, worthy ever is the Lamb for sinners slain!
See Him yonder, high exalted, King and Priest upon His throne!
Reign, almighty King, forever! Everywhere, Your will be done.
When is finished all the purpose of our God, the Three-in-One,
All Your saints will bow before You, casting at Your feet their crowns.
Don Fortner (1950-2020) served as teacher and pastor of Grace Baptist Church of Danville, Kentucky.
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved. - Ephesians 1:3-6
The Scriptures declare that God’s elect were “accepted in the Beloved” and “blessed with all spiritual blessings” in him “before the foundation of the world.” Were we accepted and blessed in and with Christ from eternity as righteous or as unrighteous? The obvious answer is the only answer: — as righteous. In 1647 Samuel Richardson declared the same sweet revelation of the gospel…
“Some place justification to be only in the conscience. But we place it only in Christ where it is, and to whom it belongs. Justification consists in taking away of sin. None but Christ can do that. Justification and acceptation are one. For without justification there is no acceptation. And seeing we are accepted in Christ, we are justified in him. If our justification be a spiritual blessing, (as it is) then it is in Christ where all spiritual blessings are, "Blessed be God, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in Christ," Eph. 1:3. Where our redemption and righteousness are, there is our justification. Righteousness and justification are one. This we have not in our selves but in Christ, "who is made unto us of God, wisdom and righteousness," 1 Cor. 1:30. "In whom we have redemption," Col. 1:14. Our justification is a part of our completeness. Therefore, where we are complete there we are justified. But we are not complete in our selves, but in Him, Col. 2:10.”
Blessed, sweet revelation of grace. — Our Lord Jesus Christ is “THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS” eternally! — “Accepted in the Beloved!” What a sweet, soul-cheering declaration of grace. Though I am in and of myself nothing but sin, I am accepted in Christ. — Accepted in Christ before the world was made! — Accepted in Christ, though fallen in Adam! — Accepted in Christ before ever I heard his voice! — Accepted in Christ when he called me by his grace! — Accepted in Christ though often in darkness because of my own sin and unbelief! — Accepted in Christ immutably and forever!
I’m accepted! I’m accepted! I’m accepted in God’s Son!
Justified, pardoned, accepted — Holy as the Holy One!
Blest of God with every blessing, long before the world began!
Loved of God and one with Jesus, who can charge my soul with sin?
Heir of God, joint-heir with Jesus, heaven’s gates I’ll enter in!
Face to face, I’ll see my Savior, He Who put away my sin!
Lamb of God, eternal Savior, I will ever praise Your name!
Worthy, worthy, worthy ever is the Lamb for sinners slain!
See Him yonder, high exalted, King and Priest upon His throne!
Reign, almighty King, forever! Everywhere, Your will be done.
When is finished all the purpose of our God, the Three-in-One,
All Your saints will bow before You, casting at Your feet their crowns.
Don Fortner (1950-2020) served as teacher and pastor of Grace Baptist Church of Danville, Kentucky.