Featured Were Men Born Again Before Pentecost?

Hi guys, wanted to run this thread (for the umpteenth time) again because we have a lot of new members who may have some useful input on this subject.

I take the position that men did not begin to be born again until Pentecost, when men began receiving the Life (Eternal Life) that Christ came to bestow upon men.

Keep in mind that I am not saying men were not filled with the Spirit, which is God's Spirit empowering the faithful for ministries such as Prophet, Priest, King, and Warrior. Men have been filled with the Spirit in every Age, but it is only this Age in which we find men being born again.

I will start out with two passages I feel show men were not born again before Pentecost:

John 3 KJV

1 There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews:

2 The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.

3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

The Lord makes it clear, no man can see the Kingdom of God except they be born again. I would mention that Christ worked primarily within the revelation (the Hebrew Scripture, or, the Old Testament) that had been provided to men. For Nicodemus, "the Kingdom" he would have thought about was the promised restored Kingdom of Israel. That does not detract from what the Lord is actually teaching here, which is the Kingdom He would establish.

The Lord answers a question by this teacher of Israel:

4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?

5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.


His understanding is one of a physical nature. This is true of the Disciples of Christ as well, even on the very day of His Ascension. Peter tried to keep Christ from the Cross with a sword, because in his mind (as in that of Nicodemus) Israel was promised a physical Kingdom with Messiah as its King, long life, peace, safety, an end to the enmity between man and animals.

So he asks a silly question: can a man be physically born again?

The Lord distinguishes between that which is physical, and that which is spiritual. Being born of the flesh, and being born of the Spirit. Again, ye must be born again.


Nicodemus asks a better question:

9 Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be?

The Lord answers him:


10 Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?

11 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness.

12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?

13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:


The Lord states that "these can be" through the Son of Man being lifted up. In other words, dying on the Cross.

The New Birth was made possible through the Work of Christ. That is the reason Christ came:


15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.


The New Birth is the receiving of the eternal life Christ came to bestow. It is accomplished through the Son of Man being lifted up. God gave us His Son that we might have eternal life. That is why He came into the world.


Most understand that "born again" is probably better translated "born from above." In John 1:11-13 we see another passage where we understand there is a point in time when men began to be born again:


John 1

11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.


Being "born from above" is another way to say "born of God." That is the ultimate meaning. Here we see men received the ability to become sons of God when the Word came unto His Own.

Not before.

If one wants to support Regeneration in the Old Testament, I would ask that you supply the Scripture you feel teaches it.


God bless.

 

The intention is not that Isaac was born of the Spirit, but that he was born after the Spirit, meaning it was the intent of the Spirit that Isaac be the one through whom the blessings would come.

Galatians 4 KJV

22 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.

23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.


If your intention is to make being born of the Spirit (or born of God) out of Isaac's state, what do you do with he that was born after the flesh? "The flesh" refers to men making the decision (the case here being Sarai, Genesis 16:2), born after the Spirit is a reference to the Spirit's decision.

Was not Isaac also born in the flesh?



24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.

Secondly, we are told immediately this is allegory:

allēgoreō : ἀλληγορέω allēgoréō, al-lay-gor-eh'-o; from G243 and ἀγορέω agoréō (to harangue (compare G58)); to allegorize:—be an allegory (the Greek word itself).


We are told the writer isn't speaking literally.


25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.

26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.

27 For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband.

28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.

29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.

30 Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.

31 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.


In other words, the promises were to descend through he that God said they would, Abraham, and this passage distinguishes the lineage. Hagar is metaphorically speaking of the Covenant of Law, and Sarai represents the New Covenant.

Isaac was a child of promise, but the certainty that he did not receive those promises is seen explicitly throughout the Old Testament, and taught explicitly in the New:

Hebrews 11:11-13 KJV

11 Through faith also Sara herself received strength to conceive seed, and was delivered of a child when she was past age, because she judged him faithful who had promised.

12 Therefore sprang there even of one, and him as good as dead, so many as the stars of the sky in multitude, and as the sand which is by the sea shore innumerable.

13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.


I think we can safely say that Isaac was among the faithful spoken about here and that he did not receive the promise either. The promise of the indwelling of God was not yet given at that point in time. This revelation comes further down the road in history.

Hebrews 11:20 KJV

20 By faith Isaac blessed Jacob and Esau concerning things to come.


Even Isaac had to bless concerning "the things to come," meaning they had not come yet.


Hebrews 11:39-39 KJV

38 (Of whom the world was not worthy they wandered in deserts, and in mountains, and in dens and caves of the earth.

39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:


That the New Birth is part of the New Covenant is seen in the promise of the indwelling of God:


Ezekiel 36:24-27 KJV

24 For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.

25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.

26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.


That is the promise of the New Birth, given long after Isaac had died. We see the washing of water by the Word, a new spirit and a new heart, and the indwelling of God.

This...

Romans 3 KJV

10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

... was written after Isaac's death. Can one be born again and not be declared righteous before God? One can be justified, as Abraham was ... but not righteous in an eternal perspective.

Again, this is speaking in allegory, and Isaac is born after the Spirit (according to God's will), not of the Spirit, as we are according to New Covenant Promise.


God bless.

 

Because the thrust of the point was the question and the answer to how a man could be born again.

John 3:8 KJV

8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

If you are thinking that this somehow proves men were being born again at this time, keep in mind that Christ teaches men would be born again by His death immediately following His statements to Nicodemus.

The point of v.8 is that it is not physical, and not something witnessed by the eye.

Christ also told men they must believe on Christ, but who was during His ministry?

No one, not even the disciples:


John 16 KJV

28 I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father.

29 His disciples said unto him, Lo, now speakest thou plainly, and speakest no proverb.

30 Now are we sure that thou knowest all things, and needest not that any man should ask thee: by this we believe that thou camest forth from God.

31 Jesus answered them, Do ye now believe?

32 Behold, the hour cometh, yea, is now come, that ye shall be scattered, every man to his own, and shall leave me alone: and yet I am not alone, because the Father is with me.


When the Lord gives the disciples the Gospel, Peter rejects it:


Matthew 16:20-23 KJV

20 Then charged he his disciples that they should tell no man that he was Jesus the Christ.

21 From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day.

22 Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee.

23 But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.


Again, the point here is that despite being told they must believe on the Christ, that doesn't mean they had the ability to do so. It would not be until the Comforter is sent that they will have understanding:


John 16 KJV

7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;


26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.


1 Peter 1 KJV

10 Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:

11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.

12 Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.


If men were born again in the Old Testament, then there must be two ways for men to be saved on an eternal basis. Because the Gospel was a mystery, unrevealed truth in those Ages. That includes the Age of Law.


God bless.

 

Let me ask you this, KY: can a man be born again and not eternally indwelt by God?

Can a man be born again and not be in Christ, and Christ in him?


God bless.

 

Another mention of the New Birth is found here:


1 Peter 1:18-23 KJV


18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;

19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:

20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

21 Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.

22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:

23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.


Note that Christ (and His death) was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you (V.20).

Note that His Resurrection is given as a basis for our faith and hope.

Note that the Word of God is given as a means of regeneration, and the specific Word is the Gospel.


This is the second mention of regeneration Peter makes in this first chapter of his first Epistle. Here is the first:


1 Peter 1:3 KJV

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,


Now, those of us born again according to God's promises found in the New Testament, are born again by the Gospel, and it is His Resurrection that is given as the means for men to be born again. If men were born again in the Old Testament, then by what means?

You could say "Well, they trusted in the prophecy of Christ's death and resurrection." That's great, but can you really say they called on the name of Jesus Christ based on the prophecy? Did they understand that the King to come would die in their stead for their sin? That He would rise again that He might impart life that no one had yet received before?

More importantly, can we dismiss the explicit statements of Scripture that make it clear that the Gospel was not revealed unto men? Paul taught that the Gospel of Christ was a mystery. Here is just one verse that expresses that:


Colossians 1:25-27 KJV

25 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God;

26 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:

27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:


The Mystery was hid from Ages and Generations, but is now made manifest (v.26).

1 Peter 1:18-23 KJV


18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;

19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:

20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,


There is a point in time when Christ came to do His Work. There is a point in time when the Word of God was made manifest in the flesh, died, rose again, and returned to Heaven.

Again, if men were born again in the Old Testament, by what means were they born again?


God bles.

 

So where is your Scripture to support that, and how do you explain the Scripture already given to deny that?

God bless.

 

I'd like to know how an allegory about Isaac being born after (not of) the Spirit denies the clear statements already given.

Let
s look at a few once more, and I challenge you to address the points made:

There you go, broken up to make addressing them easier. Proceed.

Just saying wrong and posting the same verses doesn't go very far to proving your point. And while I'm at it, is that all you have supporting your view?

No, wait—don't answer that, please answer the points you have already ignored.


God bless.

 

While I am waiting for a response to at least one of the points already offered, here's another:


1 John 5:1-5 KJV

5 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.

2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.

3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.

5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?


Here are a few points to consider:

1. Isaac did not believe on the Name of Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ had not even been born yet, much less died and rising again.

2. Not even the disciples of Christ believed on Christ as the Savior before Pentecost. That He was the Messiah, sure, but not that He was the risen Savior Who died for their sins. Peter tried everything he could to keep Christ from the Cross, including physical violence with a sword. Remember that little incident in the Garden of Gethsemane?

3. Men cannot be born again apart from the Resurrection:

1 Peter 1:3 KJV

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

4. People cannot be born again apart from the Gospel:

1 Peter 3:22 KJV

22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:

23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

24 For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away:

25 But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.


God bless.

 

Cornelius was a devout Gentile, and just before God—and still needed to be born again.


Acts 11:13-18 KJV

13 And he shewed us how he had seen an angel in his house, which stood and said unto him, Send men to Joppa, and call for Simon, whose surname is Peter;

14 Who shall tell thee words, whereby thou and all thy house shall be saved.

15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning.

16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.

17 Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?

18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.


As far as those Jews at Pentecost being "heavenly born," let me remind you:


Romans 3:10 KJV

10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

Saying they were born again is a stretch, lol.

Let me what Peter said they were:


Acts 2 KJV

22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:

23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:


The murderers of Christ. Hardly born again men.


36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made the same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.

37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?

38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.


Are you really going to try to argue that these men were born again?

You are teaching that men can be born again yet not have the Spirit of God, not have received remission of sins.

You want to stick with that teaching?


God bless.

 

Same Scripture.

Again, Is this all you have?


God bless.

 

You haven't read any of the rambling posts. I even offered up some points broken up.

If you are not going to participate, that's fine, but please go ignore responses in another thread, lol.

How you can conclude that an allegory that metaphorically speaks of Isaac as born after the Spirit (and please show me where that phrase is found in any text referring to the New Birth) proves men were born in the Old Testament is beyond me.

Secondly, what you are teaching is that there is another way to be born again apart from what Scripture teaches is necessary.

You complain that I leave out v.8 in John 3 then ignore the rest of the Scripture quoted, as well as the points. Let me try that again:


John 3 KJV

1 There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews:

2 The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.

3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.


5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.


9 Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be?


14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:


So how is it that Jesus taught that men could be born again by His death, yet you say it is not necessary?

Just answer that.


God bless.

 

So men have always been born again?

So one can be born again yet not be redeemed? And not have received remission of sins? And not be eternally indwelt by God?

In the first quote, are you saying that salvation had already taken place for men?

In the second, do you see men are born after God?

Born after the Spirit?

Have you really not noticed that Prophecy of salvation is prophecy because it hadn't happened at the time it was given?

Let's take a look at Israel, and her state, right after the death of Christ:


Luke 24 KJV

13 And, behold, two of them went that same day to a village called Emmaus, which was from Jerusalem about threescore furlongs.

14 And they talked together of all these things which had happened.

15 And it came to pass, that, while they communed together and reasoned, Jesus himself drew near, and went with them.

16 But their eyes were holden that they should not know him.

17 And he said unto them, What manner of communications are these that ye have one to another, as ye walk, and are sad?

18 And the one of them, whose name was Cleopas, answering said unto him, Art thou only a stranger in Jerusalem, and hast not known the things which are come to pass there in these days?

19 And he said unto them, What things? And they said unto him, Concerning Jesus of Nazareth, which was a prophet mighty in deed and word before God and all the people:

20 And how the chief priests and our rulers delivered him to be condemned to death, and have crucified him.

21 But we trusted that it had been he which should have redeemed Israel: and beside all this, to day is the third day since these things were done.


Does this not show Israel was still in need of redemption?

So they were born again but unredeemed?

Galatians 3:13
Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

And you think this states men were already redeemed?

Really?

It is Christ that redeemed Israel, and this when He came:

Galatians 4:4-6 KJV

4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,

5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.

6 And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.


Again I ask, how can men be born again, born from above, born of God—and not be indwelt by Christ?

You cannot deny this states Christ came when the fullness of times was come. That was not throughout the entire history of man.

You cannot deny this teaches that Christ redeemed men from the Law.

You cannot deny that this passage teaches that it is when He redeemed men that He sent forth the Spirit of His Son.

You cannot deny that it is at this time we received the adoption unto sons, becoming sons of God.


Or maybe you can.


God bless.