Featured Were Men Born Again Before Pentecost?

You understand that being justified, especially in the Old Testament sense—is an entirely different issue from Regeneration, right?

I started a thread in Other Denominations (so that anyone that wants to can join in) called Temporal Justification, be happy to have you join that thread.

God bless.

 

So let me ask you this, Ken: are you saying that Abraham understood the Gospel as it was revealed to him and was trusting in Jesus Christ for his salvation?

I am going to answer this again in more detail but wanted your answer on that question first.

Thanks, in advance.

God bless.

 

I agree, however, what do you do with the fact that the Gospel of Christ was not revealed to men in the Old Testament? Meaning, the Gospel is found in the Old Testament, but understanding of it was not given until Pentecost.

It might be argued that the disciples understood after the Resurrection, but I would disagree with that as well:

Acts 1 King James Version

1 The former treatise have I made, O Theophilus, of all that Jesus began both to do and teach,

2 Until the day in which he was taken up, after that he through the Holy Ghost had given commandments unto the apostles whom he had chosen:

3 To whom also he shewed himself alive after his passion by many infallible proofs, being seen of them forty days, and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God:

4 And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.

5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.


First, consider the day of the Ascension and the disciples on this day. The baptism with John is contrasted with the baptism with the Holy Ghost, which tells us the disciples were not yet baptized into Christ. For that is what the baptism with the Holy Ghost is, baptism into Christ and eternal life.

Let's look at John's statement on this:

Matthew 3:11-12 King James Version

11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance. but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:

12 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.


Two baptisms mention that are performed by Christ: a baptism with the Holy Ghost, and a baptism with fire. The Baptism with the Holy Ghost represents eternal life (being gathered into His garner, being wheat). The second is a baptism unto eternal judgment. Unquenchable fire, and chaff being burned up. Very familiar terminology.

In light of that, do you see how important being baptized with the Holy Ghost is when we are speaking of salvation?

Now I ask you, can a man be born again and not be in Christ, nor have Christ in Him? You need only to read John 14:15-23 to see that the "promise" in view in v.4 is the promise of the Spirit as given in the Old Testament (Ezekiel 36:27, for example).

The disciples hadn't yet received that. Hence they were not in Christ nor Christ in them, hence they were not yet eternally redeemed through eternal union with God.

Now look at the question they ask after being told they are going to receive the Promise of the Father:


6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?

7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.


Their minds are still natural, and they are still looking for the physical kingdom promised by God in the Old Testament.

Even after being told they would be baptized with the Holy Ghost.

The Lord states it's not for them to know at this time, but ...


8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.


Two things briefly: while most view the Baptism with the Holy Ghost as an "empowerment," confusing it with the filling of the Spirit (which has occurred in all Ages), we need only read Acts 11:13-18 to see that when Cornelius received the Baptism with the Holy Ghost he was saved. God granted unto him, at that time, eternal life. We can also look at Christ's Own teachings to support this, for he said that when the Spirit was sent, we would be eternally indwelt by God the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost (John 14:15-23).

He also said that the Comforter could not come until He left (John 16:7). Note v.9. That is the second thing I would point out at this time. The disciples could not possibly have received the Spirit because it is not until this point that Christ returns to the Father. And I will just throw in that statement because it shows two things as well: first, that the disciples are not believing on Christ as the Savior (see also Matthew 16:20-23 where Peter rejects the GOspel given to him by Christ) and that Christ is returning to the Father:


John 16:7 King James Version

7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.


John 16:28-32 King James Version

28 I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father.

29 His disciples said unto him, Lo, now speakest thou plainly, and speakest no proverb.

30 Now are we sure that thou knowest all things, and needest not that any man should ask thee: by this we believe that thou camest forth from God.

31 Jesus answered them, Do ye now believe?

32 Behold, the hour cometh, yea, is now come, that ye shall be scattered, every man to his own, and shall leave me alone: and yet I am not alone, because the Father is with me.


While most have heard the disciples retreat from Christ as a moment of weakness, the simple truth here is that they simply don't have the ability to understand the Gospel because it is still a Mystery that will not be revealed until the Spirit comes.

And the disciples would not receive the Spirit until Pentecost. Why do you think Peter tried to murder a man to keep Christ from the Cross? WHy did he deny he knew Christ?

But after he received the Spirit, the Comforter, Who is the Promise of God in both the Old Testament Scriptures as well as the One promised by Christ—Peter immediately begins preaching the Gospel (Acts 2).

So I ask you how can a man be born again and not be in Christ and not be indwelt by Christ?

How is it that Scripture can call this blessing the riches of the Mystery of the Gospel yet this promise is somehow bestowed before the promise is even fulfilled?


Colossians 1:25-27 King James Version

25 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God;

26 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:

27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:


Please explain to me how men can be born again and not be in Christ. That is all I ask.

 

No.

See post 29, I just presented why in a response to Ken.

God bless.

 

This is true: Abraham rejoiced because he knew that through his descendant blessing would be bestowed on all families/nations of the earth.

That doesn't negate the teaching of Prophecy, Christ, and Paul.

Prophecy taught that salvation through Messiah was a future event, that is why we call prophecy concerning Christ Messianic Prophecy. The promises were not bestowed to the Old Testament Saints:


Hebrews 11:13 King James Version

13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

Hebrews 11:39-40 King James Version

39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:

40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.


The things to understand in these verses are:

1. The Old Testament Saints did not receive the promise of God during their lifetimes. The promise of the indwelling of God is one of those promises (Ezekiel 36:27). This is the Promise Christ speaks about when He says in Acts 1:4 And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.

"John baptized with water unto repentance, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence."

2. They saw the promises afar off! (lol) This is how "Abraham rejoiced to see Christ's day. He had expectation of the fulfillment of God's promise that his son would bless all families of the earth. If you notice in the following passage ...


Galatians 3:6-8 King James Version

6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.

7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.

8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.


Notice that 1) Abraham is declared righteous (justified) because he believed God's promise. And 2) notice what it is he believed.

Where do you see "Jesus Christ will die in your stead and rise again the third day that you might have eternal life?" You won't see it because the Gospel was hid from all men in all ages past. But he was justified for his belief in the veiled Gospel.

Now if you want to believe Abraham was born again and indwelt with the Spirit Who at that time was still promised to all men, okay. But you are believing something that Scripture pointedly tells you didn't happen:

God bless

 

That's not really an answer, Ken, though it is an answer.

Why would you not want to answer it?

Here it is again:

God bless.

 

I would agree with that. Their faith in the revelation provided to them at the time is the reason they were justified.

How does that equate to being indwelt by Christ (which hadn't happened yet) or receiving the promise of the Spirit (which had not happened yet).

So speak plainly, what you are saying is that men can be born of God, not be in Christ, not have their sins redeemed, and not have the eternal indwelling of God.

Right?


God bless.

 

Actually, you are witnessing Christ opening the Scripture and revealing to them at that time what passages were relevant to Messiah, and how they were fulfilled in Himself.

They were fools because Scripture taught that Messiah would in fact redeem Israel, yet their hearts were despondent because the One they thought was Messiah was dead:


Luke 24:17-21 King James Version

17 And he said unto them, What manner of communications are these that ye have one to another, as ye walk, and are sad?

18 And the one of them, whose name was Cleopas, answering said unto him, Art thou only a stranger in Jerusalem, and hast not known the things which are come to pass there in these days?

19 And he said unto them, What things? And they said unto him, Concerning Jesus of Nazareth, which was a prophet mighty in deed and word before God and all the people:

20 And how the chief priests and our rulers delivered him to be condemned to death, and have crucified him.

21 But we trusted that it had been he which should have redeemed Israel: and beside all this, to day is the third day since these things were done.


The one thing you need to understand here, Ken, is that Israel needed to be redeemed.

Understand?

No man was redeemed at this point. If you would care to see where they were redeemed I will be happy to show you:


Galatians 4:4-6 King James Version

4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,

5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.

6 And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.


Hebrews 9:11-12 King James Version

11 But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;

12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.


The Old Testament Saint definitely looked for redemption, but Eternal Redemption is what Christ accomplished.


God bless.